has anyone tried that Gamzou M10 yet?

[barry guerrero]

.   .  just curious.

[Roffe]

Hm,
Of the 3 revieuwers at Amazon.com, it was only a "Mahler nutcase" that liked it. Not being a Carpenter fan myself, I think I'll pass and spend my hard earned money on other things, since I already own enough Carperter M10's in my vieuw (1, Litton).

Roffe

[sperlsco]

For Roffe:  It is not a Carpenter version.  Instead it is Gamzou's own completion -- independent from any of the other existing ones. 

For Barry: I bought this one a month or two ago and watched/listened to it a couple of times through.  Before listening to it, I went to Yoel Gamzou's website and read his thoughts about M10 and his approach to completing it.  He certainly attempts to make it his own (i.e. NOT based on one of the existing adaptations).  Some of his ideas work well, others do not (to my ears).  Unfortunately, the orchestral playing is quite subpar -- robbing the performance of any chance it may have had to impress me. 

I have great admiration for Mr. Gamzou's effort (particularly after reading about his approach), so I chose not to write some sort of a negative review on the forum.  But since you asked, Barry, I thought I'd write at least this much. 

Scott

[barry guerrero]

Roffe,

I'm "Mahler Nutcase", and I think you might be confusing Gamzou for David Zinman (Carpenter). Anyway, if you already have the A. Litton M10, then you don't need the Zinman also.

[barry guerrero]

"Unfortunately, the orchestral playing is quite subpar -- robbing the performance of any chance it may have had to impress me."

That's too bad because the few video clips that exist on-line sound really well played. The score to his version is available from Schott, and maybe I'll invest in it sometime. I'm a bit tired of the others 

[Roffe]

sperlsco: I stand corrected. Thank you for pointing this out. Suddenly that recording seems a little bit more interesting. I'll think about buying it.

Barry: I knew that you were the "Mahler Nutcase". I've seen your reviews before and I normally trust them. I do, however, not share your fascination/admiration of Clinton Carpenter's "completion" of M10. But, it takes all sorts to make a world. Most other versions of M10, that I've listened to, I'm totally comfortable with.

Talking about M10's, I was at a concert last Sunday. where they were playing Mozart's Requiem, and I was thinking of the many conductors that could perform this piece in either Süssmayer's or Franz Beyer's version (Lennie is one of them), but won't touch the performing versions of M10 with a 10 ft pole. Strange, isn't it?

Roffe

[barry guerrero]

As I said in my review, preferences in Mahler 10 are greatly a personal matter. I made it clear that I wasn't trying to make converts. However, I really feel that ALL of the current versions are quite bad with the exception of Cooke and Carpenter. In my book, the poorest ones are Wheeler and Barshai. Then again, it's hard to tell from some of the existing recordings, partly because ALL of these editors add way too much useless filigree. The Samale/Mazzuca version clearly needs a better commercial recording. I somewhat like Mazzetti's first version (Slatkin/RCA), but much less so his revised one (Lopez-Cobos/Telarc).

There are so many issues surrounding this. For starters, they ALL should leave the first movement climax alone. Nearly all of them get trigger-happy too soon, and at the wrong places.

As for Mozart, I think the Beyer version does a better job of disguising where Mozart ends, and where the next guy starts.

[JasonV]

I did.

I ordered it a few months ago and listened to it a couple of times.  I then loaned it to a friend so I haven't heard it lately.  I would need to hear it a couple more times to go into more specifics, but I thought I'd give you guys an initial report.

I believe I have heard all of the other completions (Cooke I, II, III, Wheeler, Barshai, S&M, Mazzetti I and II, Carpenter, missing any?).

I think the Gamzou presents the most important step forward since Cooke in providing new insight into Mahler's intentions.  His choices seem much more Mahlerian than some of those by Mazzetti, Wheeler and others--there are relatively few moments that sound 'wrong' for Mahler.

He's clearly put a lot of time into each and every moment of the piece.  There are lots of noticeable little differences.  Many of them work well, many are neutral, some don't work as well. 

What he does with the Finale is his greatest contribution.  While Cooke seems to have "corrected" a lot of "wrong" notes.  Gamzou gives us a much closer picture to the piece Mahler intended as far as dissonances and non-diatonic harmonies go.  The lush string parts of the Finale sound nuanced and boundary-pushing.  The movement sounds more like it belongs in a symphony with the first movement. 

I have always felt that the second half of the Finale seems too pedestrian for Mahler.  Indeed, this movement  still reveals itself as a work in progress, but with the Gamzou completion a tension between diatonicism and atonality is now apparent.  You get the sense that this movement was meant to present a yin/yang juxtaposition between the old and the new, rather than simply present a derivative tonal ending.

I think Gamzou's tempi need work, especially in the Scherzi.  They feel a bit overfussed over, too much accelerando/ritardando, but the benefit here is that a number of new tempi ideas are presented, some of which do work quite well.  I suspect that Gamzou or another conductor would be capable of better presenting this new score after performing it a few more times.

The tempo trouble and the quality of the recording (sounds like the peaks are somewhat clipped) keep this from being THE definitive source for M10, but it's in the top 5 recordings for me, and probably the only non-Cooke version I can accept without any major reservations.

I think it's an exciting step forward.  The next completion should definitely look at the new ideas Gamzou has presented.

[hrandall]

Has anyone heard if this Gamzou M10 is going to be released on CD any time soon? I still haven't decided about ordering the DVD, would prefer a CD version if the wait isn't too much longer.

Cheers,
Herb

[barry guerrero]

Jason,

I don't know if you noticed or would care, but Gamzou changed the form of the first scherzo (with a possible small cut or two), and put some pretty big cuts in the second scherzo. I'd have to watch it again to come up with specifics, but those were moves that I didn't care for. I also didn't care for the nearly overwrought manner in which Gamzou made such huge contrasts, and juxtapositions, between fast and slow tempi. It's certainly THE most radical M10 since the Cooke, but is it really better than those other ones?

Barry Guerrero

[brunumb]

The Gamzou 10 is coming out shortly on CD and available from MDT:

http://www.mdt.co.uk/mahler-symphony-no-10-international-mahler-orchestra-yoel-gamzou-wergo.html

[barry guerrero]

Yeah, I saw that. I think I'll pick it up, just to give it a serious listen. But he does make extreme contrasts - exaggerated, in my opinion.

[brunumb]

Good.  I will wait for your review.

[hrandall]

It's also available on Spotify if you want to hear it before buying.

[barry guerrero]

Thanks, I'll use Spotify. I can review it NOW:  listen at your own risk       .    .     .   later on:

It's a performance of huge contrasts. Right in the first scherzo, there's a HUGE contrast between the scherzo proper and the first trio section. The same thing happens in the "Purgatorio". The end of the Purgatorio is hugely exaggerated as well. Regardless, it's certainly more filled out than most of the others. And I'll say this much for the recording   .      .     .   

it's a lot easier to listen to this without having to watch Gamzou's jerky mannerisms and tortured expressions. And despite everything, it's certainly a labor of love - no doubts about that.

The very start of the 4th movement (second scherzo) is pretty bizarre.  I can't recommend it, but perhaps most 'Mahlerians' should at least hear him out.