Organ in Bernstein/LSO Columbia/Sony M8

[waderice]

Barry may know this, but if not, does anyone know if and what organ was dubbed into the Bernstein/LSO Columbia/Sony M8 recording?  In my listening again to the Andreas K. Meyer-remastering of this recording, the organ seems to take on a dubbed-in sound.

This recording was made at Walthamstow Town Hall in London, which as I have seen in photos from other significant recordings made there, there is no organ visible in the main hall, which is why I assume that an organ from somewhere else was dubbed into the recording.

Thanks, Wade

[barry guerrero]

I'm afraid Barry doesn't know the answer to this. If memory serves - which it very well might not - they might have used the organ where the live performances were done at (which I think would make it Royal Albert Hall).

[waderice]

Thanks, Barry.  Though I haven't heard that many recordings of the Albert Hall organ, the only other recording of M8 done in that hall that I have as a comparative reference is the Horenstein one from 1959.  From what I hear of the organ, plus the hall acoustics in that recording, I think you're right.

But many other recordings I've heard that were made in Walthamstow Town Hall certainly do not take on as cavernous a sound in Bernstein's M8 where the organ doesn't play.  So based on what we likely know, my belief is that the organ was recorded after the primary Walthamstow recording was made, and considerable reverb was added to the Walthamstow recording to match the acoustic of the Albert Hall organ recording, and once an acceptable match was found, the two separate recordings were dubbed to make a composite master.

Maybe recording engineer James Meckley may have something to say about this.

Wade

[barry guerrero]

All of that might help to explain why the British critics were never that crazy about this particular M8. However, I always liked it far more than the trumped-up Solti. I think it's more 'musical' and has a lot more 'soul', for a lack of a better word.

[Prospero]

The booklet on the SACD Japanese SICC 10065-6 issue claims the following:

"Echo and Organ Synchronization at the Stadtkirche, Winterthur, Switzerland."

The main recording venue is listed as Walthamstow Assembly Hall, April 18-20, 1966."

Producer is John McClure. Engineer is Helmuth Kolbe.

If this documentation is correct, the organ is not from the Albert Hall. But overdubbing and added echo are indicated.

I hope this helps.

Tom in Vermont

[James Meckley]

The booklet on the SACD Japanese SICC 10065-6 issue claims the following:
"Echo and Organ Synchronization at the Stadtkirche, Winterthur, Switzerland."

That's interesting and in a way surprising information. Certainly "organ transplants" were not uncommon in that era, but I'd love to know how the church might have been involved in adding "echo" (surely they meant reverberation) to the overall recording. It could have been as simple as moving one of their big EMT plate reverb units to the church and doing most of the heavy post production in one sitting, or they might have done something much more interesting—somehow using the internal volume of the church to add reverberation to the orchestral and choral tracks as well. Still, when the organ is playing with the rest of the group, there remains a disturbing sense that they're not in the same acoustical space.

I checked through my files earlier today to see if I had any information on the organ issue; I did not, but I did find a set of photographs of the Columbia Masterworks recording sessions in Walthamstow. A comparison with a photograph of the live event given earlier that same month in Royal Albert Hall is fascinating. In the live event, I would estimate there were at least 500 singers, but for the recording it looks like there were barely 150. This is ironic given all the flack EMI and Tennstedt took for using an underpopulated chorus in their recording of Mahler 8 made 20 years later. I have some photographs of those sessions—also in Walthamstow—and it looks as if Tennstedt actually used more singers that Bernstein!

Speaking of recording venues, I just returned from Montréal where I had a chance to hear L'Orchestre symphonique de Montréal in their brand-new performing hall. It's a triumph acoustically, and I bet it'll make a great recording location—at least I'd love to record something there.

While in Montréal I was also fortunate enough to meet up with Board Member Herb Randall and his wife Magdalena for a fine meal and good conversation.

James

[waderice]

Thanks all, for your input thus far.  I had wondered how Bernstein might have been able to assemble an Albert Hall-size chorus for M8 to be recorded in Walthamstow, as photos I've seen of the Tennstedt M8 sessions, plus Andre Previn's earlier recording of the Berlioz Requiem certainly indicate that fewer singers were used.  I'm certainly surprised about the Swiss organ being used as the instrument dubbed into the recording.

My next question might be:  With these facts in mind, do any of you think that engineering-wise, the success of this and other M8 recordings with a dubbed organ are diminished?  Regardless of how a given conductor makes the piece go, subsequent studio and possibly live recordings to a lesser extent) of M8 (including Solti) had the organ dubbed in.  The Gergiev LSO SACD performance used St. Paul's Cathedral organ for the live performances done there, I believe, as opposed to a dubbed instrument.  Also, can anyone say anything about the engineering done on the 1970's Wyn Morris/Symphonica of London recording?

Wade

P.S. - I think that the Harvard University organ as dubbed into Gilbert Kaplan's first M2 recording certainly sounds great.  It might be a bit overdone, but he certainly makes a case for it in the notes as an instrument that Mahler endorsed.

[barry guerrero]

.    .    and on Kaplan's Vienna Phil. M2, they dubbed in the organ from the Berlin Philharmonie (since the little baroque one in the Musikverein is totally inadequate.

Personally, I don't whether it's been dubbed in or not, as long as it sounds good and registers a true fortissimo in relation to everything else.