B.G. listens to Haitink/CSO M3

[barry guerrero]

Boy, I don't know - maybe it's just me, but I'm not bowled over by the new Haitink M3. Part of the problem, I think, is that there's almost zero hall ambience to the sound. It's very upfront, and that's not always a good thing with Chicago's lethal brass section. To me, this is a little bit of a time reversal; harking back to the good (bad, in my book) old days when each Solti/CSO Mahler release redefined the mean of "blast-a-thon". The brass are very strong, indeed. But combined with Haitink's rather poker face conducting (and I thought Horenstein defined, "one size fits all", when it came to tempo relationships), this is loud without an abundance of tension or excitement. At the first movement's development section, Haitink is stately without Horenstein's nutzoid - and thus, exciting - tambourine and horn trills. In other words, Horenstein finds the more interesting coloristic effects in his balances, even though he's equally slow. With Haitink/CSO, you get the impression of a percussion section that's fighting to keep up with a very powerful brass section - just like the Solti days. But more to the point, there's a dichotomy that just doesn't work for me. On the one hand, we have Haitink, who nearly always makes early Mahler sound overly mature for its years. But on the other hand, we have the famous names of the CSO brass section, putting on a show for the brass playing frat boys at Northwestern and University of Indiana:  "dude, let's down some tall brewskis and get down with Chicago!" - just like when I was in music school!

So, by all means, this ain't "bad" in any technical sense of the word. If you're a big brass fan, you won't be disappointed. It's just that at the time of the official announcement, I wasn't convinced that Haitink would be a great match for where the CSO is at today. This recording leaves me thinking that my hunches might still be correct. I'll give a more detailed and objective description of the play-by-play later on.

I might also mention another, "maybe it's just me" issue. I don't know - it just seems that Michelle De Young sounds less good with each new outing. I hear so little of the wonderful, natural voice that graced her "DLvdE" on Reference Recordings, a full decade ago. It seems like she's trying so hard to be a big sounding Wagnerian these days. Again, maybe it's just me (?). Even though she doesn't possess such a beautiful sounding instrument, I prefer Petra Lang. Birgirt Remmert is my current favorite Mahler mezzo.

[Leo K]

Hmmm...this review has really peaked my interest, since I am a big brass fan, yet it sounds like you're saying theres no subtlety in the playing?  I don't like the thought of no ambience.  I look forward to a more detailed review.

[barry guerrero]

I think it's worth hearing, Leo. If someone loved it BECAUSE of the big brass, I could fully understand that. They do play really well. But your "lack of subtelty" comment is not too far off the mark. There are strings, and there are woodwinds. But they're not particularly outstanding strings, or particularly outstanding woodwinds. In fact, I've never thought that the CSO woodwinds sounded particularly great when playing way up high. They screech and "pinch" here and there, but not particularly well. New York; Cleveland; Boston; Concertgebouw; Czech Phil. - these orchestras stand tall over the CSO when it comes to woodwinds. With the CSO in Mahler, there's often times a tendency to call in the cavalry - the "cavalry" being the brass. They carry the day, and they do it really well - there's no denying that. But again, these days, Haitink makes early Mahler sound like music written by a much older man. Combined with the rather upfront sound quality (lack of ambience), these combinations of variables just don't work well for me.

I'm also disappointed in much of the tam-tam playing. Yes, the big stroke at the end of the first movement is there. But all of the soft strokes near the start of the symphony are nearly inaudible. The same is true for the fortissimo smash that happens immediately after the big trombone solo. Also, during the "southern storm" fantasy passage that caps the development section of the first movement, you don't hear any of the half-note gong strokes through there either (basically, a stroke every other beat). On top of that, at the end of the third movement (taken at a decent clip), someone decides to use a much smaller gong there, and it nearly gets drowned out by the suspended cymbal. But worse yet, in the middle orchestral passage from the short "bim-bam" choral movement, you hear absolutely zero of the alternating salvos between the tam-tam and suspended cymbal - you hear none of that! So basically, there's only one really good (audible) tam-tam stroke in the entire performance, and that's near the end of the first movement.

[Leo K]

Thanks for these reviews Barry...after listening to some clips on iTunes I decided to buy it (not on iTunes...bit rate too small on iTunes)...the brass indeed roars on the clip I heard, and in the 2nd and 3rd movements I can almost sense insects buzzing in the heat.  Sorry to hear of the tam tam problem...as a huge fan of the tam tam a good tam tam can be a deciding factor sometimes...oh well...at least the brass is strong.

I can''t wait to hear the whole thing.

[barry guerrero]

Since you're not bothered by slow performances, you may like it more than I do. For me, it's not so much that Haitink is slow, as much as that he's so darn "poker face". He refuses to provide much contrast anywhere along the way. I actually find it kind of hard to keep my concentration on the performance. The climax of the big brass chorale in the sixth movement is really well done - there's no denying that. But for me, it's almost a "too little, too late" situation. I just wasn't drawn in sufficiently during the previous 90-something minutes of music.

[Leo K]

Yeah, I also really like Haitink's M6, and perhaps the poker face works better there (where the energy slowly unfolds and reveals details of the drama), but I shall see when I receive the new M3.  Here is what a poster on the M-List wrote (who was also at the concert):

I just got my copy in the mail last night and listened but over
headphones in an effort not to annoy (or frighten) the my fellow
apartment-dwellers.  I doubt that I can really be unbiased about this recording, because
it reminds me forcefully of the live concert that I was so taken by.

That said, I did feel that orchestral virtuosity was paired to a very
fine sense of overall line.  I was time and again dazzled not just by
brass (though Christopher Martin sounds just as good as Bud Herseth, high
praise indeed), but also the winds and strings.  Moreover, the players seem
very alert and alive to the moment -- almost as if eager to please the
conductor.  I won't argue with David about the mezzo:  she is a bit wavery for my
taste,though she also has some nice moments.

It's quite possible that simpler miking could have made for a better
recording, but I undoubtedly need to hear this with regular speakers to
see how much this bothers me.  The only thing that I classified as a
serious issue while listening last night was the timpani in the Finale -- I do not
remember them being this loud...David Lamb is right that overactive timps can
affect the desired solemnity of the climax of the piece.  Still, even though the very end
isn't as glorious as it was in concert, the overall experience of this recording
is worth it imho.

I'd be interested in what others think of the recording -- especially
those who weren't there and so don't constantly flash back to memories of the
concert.

Bill Drewett

[barry guerrero]

Leo,

Is that finally a photo of Georgette to the left? We usually get Charles Ives; Lorin Maazel, or god knows who.

[Leo K]

 

No, that isn't her, but actually the features are very similar!!  No red hair though 

The lady is Miki Berenyi (a women of hungarian and japanese descent born in London), the lead singer of a band named Lush, a band long disbanded...I never met her but I saw her perform sometime in 1992 and the music was beautiful beyond my imagination.  The music is very pop, with high ethereal harmonies and "swimming" guitars:



I will put a pic of Georgette up though...soon!

[Vatz Relham]

Birgirt Remmert is my current favorite Mahler mezzo.

Barry,

Have you heard Remmert in the Chamber version of DLVDE? She is very good in it.
I also like the tenor Hans Peter Blochwitz, vocally it's one of the best I think, and the Schoenberg/Riehn arrangment is certainly well done.





Vatz

[barry guerrero]

Vatz,

Yes, I have heard it; and yes, I think she's quite good. But as you might guess, I'm not a big fan of the chamber version. To me, the piece is "chamber-y" enough as it is. But thanks for pointing this out. Maybe she'll do the regular someday.

Barry

[sperlsco]

I've only had a chance to listen to the first movement this weekend, but so far I like it.  I acknowledge Barry's criticism of the conducting, as it is rather inflexible.  I think a little bit of flexibility goes a long way, even in a marching movement. This still works fine for me though, as it never sounds laborious.  Perhaps I am just taken with the playing of the CSO.  The brass are amazingly pure, but I don't feel as if they are covering up the rest of the orchestra.  The winds and strings sound good too.  The timpani, bass drum, and cymbals are absolutely extraordinary.  I don't know if I have ever heard a bass drum captured so consistently well (BTW - I laughed when I read the above criticism of the loud timpani in the finale -- darn you old people!  ).  I probably never would have noticed the missing tam-tam sections, but indeed when I compared to even the Levine/CSO I noticed what Barry was mentioning.  The southern storm may not match Haitink's first RCOA one, or even the Levine, but it is still well done.  I would have liked a little more of the swirling sound from the strings here.  I seemed to notice that the timpani player briefly sped up his beat heading into the front end of this section more so than the rest of the orchestra. It actually sounded a little herky-jerky for a brief instant. 
 
I am a little concerned with how lack of flexibility in tempos will affect my enjoyment of the finale.  We'll see. 

[Leo K]

Thanks for the helpful review Sperlsco...man, I can't wait to hear the brass on this recording.


Leo K--

[John Kim]

I've just finished listening to a radio clip of Haitinik/CSO M3:I. I quite liked it, based on what I heard on this one. Brilliant and sturdy brass, steady and convincing tempo throughout, with all the details sharply observed and executed. Yes, the Chicago brass can be overbearing but how many times did we have a chance to hear them playing M3rd? I heard that the commercial recording doesn't have as much ambiance as this one....so that could be one reason why Barry was not fond of it.

John,

[barry guerrero]

"so that could be one reason why Barry was not fond of it".

Yes, that's very much one reason why Barry isn't terribly fond of it - I already pointed that in excruiating detail, John. I've been listening to it at work, and I really don't feel that it's among the very best ones - far from it, even. Haitink is his usual boring self, and there's nothing particularly outstanding about any section of the Chicago Symphony, other than the brass. But if you want bass drum; boy, James Mallinson has certainly captured the bass drum! Too bad that so much of the rest of the percussion playing is so inconsistant.

[Jot N. Tittle]

Much like the vicar's egg, parts of this M 3 are excellent. Bright it surely is--quite an opening. I note that the CD is a composite of three night's recording. Having been there one of the nights, I know that the posthorn (played behind the backdrop) was much stronger, yet seeming from a distance, than on the recording, where it comes off faint but not distant--just faint. Is this a lack of ambiance such as you speak of, Barry? It was also surprising to find that the soprano was not stronger on the recording--from where I sat (to her right and a little behind) her voice lacked power, but I thought it was merely an acoustic effect of where I sat. But she had no more voice on the recording than I had heard from the side.

I sat where I did specifically to observe Old Poker Face conduct. He played a good hand.

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