Author Topic: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….  (Read 36633 times)

Offline barry guerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3928
Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2015, 06:53:53 PM »
Just speaking for myself, I like Tennstedt's earlier studio M8 much more than the live one that showed up on video. Part II of the live one just loses shape for me, as Tennstedt loads it with massive ritardandos at every possible harmonic cadence point, and at every junction from one section to the next. Pianists and conductors - man, they just kill me! You wouldn't talk that way, and most singers wouldn't sing in such an exaggerated manner. Could you imagine an Ella Fitgerald performance of some Irving Berlin standard being imbued with massive ritard's everywhere - nobody would listen to it!

But getting back on point, for all the overloaded expressive points that Tennstedt makes in Part II, he still takes the end of the work at a relatively quick pace. Yes, it's loud and everybody is dedicated. But everybody is loud and dedicated on pretty much ANY Mahler 8th (except Abbado). I think Tennstedt's studio one is better recorded, better sung (for the most part), and certainly better conducted. For me, Tennstedt 'went off the rails' in his late period, and pretty much only the M6 works with type of treatment. That said, I would like to have heard a late Bruckner 8 from him (but not with the LPO).

I'm glad I got to see Tennstedt earlier in his career - I saw him do a 'knock out' M2 in RFH in early 1981 (before the EMI studio recording came out). The exaggerated later ones aren't nearly as good, regardless of what his sycophants say.

Offline Prospero

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 184
Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2015, 10:18:42 PM »
Why say Tennstedt's "sycophants"? Why not just say his admirers or those who like his performances.

His 6 with the LPO in April 1983 was one of the highlights of my 50 year concert going career.

On 8. Can it be adequately recorded? I heard Nezet-Sequin do it live in Montreal in 2012 with two orchestras and over 300 in the chorus plus two boys choirs and the eight soloists. There is an overwhelming visceral experience live that no reproducing system I know of comes close to.

But of course that is the dilemma of so many fine and often less fine recordings of Mahler symphonies as opposed to the chances we get to hear these great works live.

Best to all,

Tom in Vermont


Offline waderice

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 649
Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2015, 12:19:26 AM »
Nezet-Seguin will do the centennial performance of M8's first U.S. performance next March with the Philadelphia Orchestra.  I just sent in my subscription for next year's season that includes this particular concert.

Wade

Offline barry guerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3928
Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2015, 05:21:03 PM »
In that hall, with that orchestra and THAT organ, THAT should be an outrageous experience.

"Why say Tennstedt's "sycophants"?"

You're right, that has a negative connotation. But I'm a bit bothered by those who blanket-ly heap praise on everything that Tennstedt did, simply because it was Tennstedt. In other words, being completely non-critical. Contrary to how many people feel on this topic, I believe that Tennstedt's conducting abilities and musical judgement deteriorated after he became so seriously ill. That does not mean that I wasn't sympathetic to his situation. Those are two different issues.  Like most people, we've had bad cases of cancer in our family.

I can only wrap up by saying that I was fortunate to have witnessed such a truly outstanding performance by Tennstedt before he became a card carrying member of the, 'slower is better' fan club. In my book, there was no comparison.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 04:52:52 PM by barry guerrero »

Offline AZContrabassoon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 172
Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2015, 08:07:52 PM »
On 8. Can it be adequately recorded? I heard Nezet-Sequin do it live in Montreal in 2012 with two orchestras and over 300 in the chorus plus two boys choirs and the eight soloists. There is an overwhelming visceral experience live that no reproducing system I know of comes close to.

No, I don't think so - at least not currently. I have spent a lifetime seeking out realistic, life-like recorded sound and although some recordings are more than adequate, no recording can fully capture actually being there. Having said that, I have heard several binaural recordings that offer a stunning audio experience. Too bad that when some of the newer Mahler cycles were made that someone didn't set a binaural microphone and capture that sound for headphone listeners.

There is something else that must be admitted: on a well played, well recorded cd, you can hear more orchestral details in Mahler than you will ever hear live. You will hear more than the conductor will hear. But you won't get the visceral feel of being there.

It's frustrating - just when Blu Ray and other media seem to be on the decline (as downloading and streaming take over) the technology could be used to provide extremely good multi-track recordings of the Mahler 8th. But  other than Naxos and Decca, no one seems interested in attempting to make recordings on Blu Ray. And Philadelphia doesn't record for either.

Offline waderice

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 649
Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2015, 09:19:28 PM »
I have heard several binaural recordings that offer a stunning audio experience. Too bad that when some of the newer Mahler cycles were made that someone didn't set a binaural microphone and capture that sound for headphone listeners.

I read somewhere that the legendary Horenstein M8 performance of 1959 was recorded binaurally, or with a Blumlein microphone setup.  Whichever was used, it definitely sounds like a simple microphone array.  And for works the size of M8, this probably is the best way to record it.  Excellent sound for that period in time.

Wade

Offline James Meckley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 612
Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2015, 06:43:23 AM »
I read somewhere that the legendary Horenstein M8 performance of 1959 was recorded binaurally, or with a Blumlein microphone setup. 


The Horenstein Mahler 8 was recorded using a single AKG C-24 stereo valve (tube) microphone, its two capsules set to figure-of-eight patterns, and each capsule oriented 45 degrees off center axis (the classic Blumlein-stereo configuration). The C-24 was suspended high above the audience and aimed toward the performers on stage. This was the first concert ever recorded by the BBC in stereo, and it's definitely not a binaural recording (which would have required two small microphones being placed in the ear canals of an artificial head).

I'm in sympathy with AZContrabassoon above. I think the most realistic sound available right now would come from a well-made binaural recording, captured in high-resolution digital, and heard on really fine headphones—say my STAX electrostatics or equivalent. Still not like being there—for example, the physical impact of low frequencies on the body would be lost with headphone listening—but many more aural cues would be provided by this system than any other to help us imagine being there.

James
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 06:50:48 AM by James Meckley »
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
Henry Krehbiel, New York Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler

Offline barry guerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3928
Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2015, 08:18:26 AM »
James, thanks for that detailed info. It's certainly a very good sounding M8 recording for 1959.

Offline Prospero

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 184
Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2015, 12:06:15 AM »
On 8. Can it be adequately recorded? I heard Nezet-Sequin do it live in Montreal in 2012 with two orchestras and over 300 in the chorus plus two boys choirs and the eight soloists. There is an overwhelming visceral experience live that no reproducing system I know of comes close to.



There is something else that must be admitted: on a well played, well recorded cd, you can hear more orchestral details in Mahler than you will ever hear live. You will hear more than the conductor will hear. But you won't get the visceral feel of being there.



An intriguing perspective that elevates any detail over either live experience or conductorial influence. Detail is of great importance, but does it take precedence over conception, perception of performers and audience, and the live presence and arc of performance. A recording is an audio interpretation of some form of performance. Are multimikes and engineer manipulated choices to be taken as the touchstone for what a musical work is or can be? Who is the musician and what is the nature of musical performance?

Perfection might exist in the mind of the composer, but we see how many times Mahler revised and altered his scores for and after performance.

If a work has integrity and fertility, each genuine performance will have its vision and achievements. The idea of the single performance or "recording" seems to elevate a technological moment over the life of a work.

One possible complexity might be the DLvdE of Walter 1952, Klemperer 1964/66, Kubelik 1970, and Horenstein 1972. Just a suggestion of multiple visions and performances.

Many technical and esthetic possibilities to consider.


Best to all,

Tom in Vermont



Offline barry guerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3928
Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2015, 07:35:37 AM »
Of course musical matters are of great concern, and really take precedent over sound quality in the end. But that doesn't mean that the evaluation of recordings has to be cast in an 'either/or' type situation. There are plenty of recorded performances that are both musically very solid AND sound very good. Why discount the importance of detail when there has been absolutely no other composer - ever! - who was more detailed about his orchestrations than Gustav Mahler? Let's not forget: music IS sound;  that's what it is: sound!

Mahler was extremely critical of dynamics, tone color and balances. Good sounding recordings aid the conductor and - more importantly - the composer in realizing those ends. Perhaps more to the point, bad sounding recordings get in the way of trying to achieve those ends. Regardless, I just don't see it as being 'either/or'. Neither do I believe in a prior 'golden age' of Mahler conducting. For me, THESE are the good-old days. I'm not wanting to lecture, but am simply explaining the validity of my way of looking at things.

By the way, my own personal favorite M8 recording - in spite of it have some serious drawbacks of its own - is the Colin Davis on RCA. It's not the best sounding M8 by any means. But that also doesn't mean that I can't enjoy some of the really good sounding ones in my arsenal as well, such as the Chailly dvd; the Dudamel dvd; Jonathan Nott on Tudor (great sound and a good performance); Markus Stenz on Oehms (best ending to Part II of any!), and David Zinman on RCA (a nicely paced performance in great sound. However, some of the singing isn't so great, and it could use more tam-tam at the very end [great organ, bass drum roll and cymbals]). And both the Edo deWaart and Antoni Wit ones are very solid in pretty much every aspect.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 06:51:15 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline Phoenix

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2015, 03:12:08 PM »
If SACD is a primary factor, I would then recommed Michael Tilson Thomas' recording.

Offline barry guerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3928
Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2015, 05:45:39 PM »
Let's not go there. I'll just say that he conducted the work far, FAR better in 1991. I have a 'pirate' to prove that point to myself over and over.

Offline waderice

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 649
Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2015, 07:08:23 PM »
If SACD is a primary factor, I would then recommed Michael Tilson Thomas' recording.

If it's SACD sound you want, I'd sooner go to Gergiev or Jansons, to name two.  I know there are others, but these two would head my list.  I do have Gergiev, despite the rather open, and sometimes boomy sound because it was a live performance in London's St. Paul's Cathedral, but the performance is quite good.

Wade

Offline Phoenix

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2015, 09:40:13 PM »
Can't personally go with Gergiev.  After hearing what he did with the finale of the 9th, I don't think he has the faintest idea how Mahler should be conducted.  Jansons would be a good choice I'm sure.  At least he has some experience with Mahler and doesn't view him as the "flavor of the month", which is the impression I get from Gergiev.

Remember, the OP wanted SACD recommendations.  There aren't many out there to choose from, that's why I suggested Thomas', which, BTW, is a very fine performance! 



Offline ChrisH

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2015, 11:14:45 PM »
I'd throw in Maazel's 8th with the New York. Not SACD, hardly anything is recorded in DSD anyway, but in hi-rez 24/88.2. A great sounding recording, and much more enjoyable to me than his earlier try with Vienna. There are a few quirks here and there, some odd tempos in the last half of the Veni. Overall I really enjoy it. Great playing, pretty good soloists and choir. Excellent impact and a very present organ.

On my stereo the best sounding 8th is the Stenz or the Chailly blu-ray.

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk