Author Topic: future of Mahler in Amsterdam is solid - very solid!  (Read 15805 times)

Offline barry guerrero

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future of Mahler in Amsterdam is solid - very solid!
« on: August 21, 2016, 06:17:34 PM »
Picked up a 'burn job' of a live Mahler 3 with Danielle Gatti and Christianne Stotijn from the Concertgebouw. Even with compressed sound and less than ideal balances, it absolutely blows the doors off the Jansons/Concertgebouw M3 (good riddance).

Several decades ago, when Gatti and the Royal Phil. performed M5 at Davies Hall (S.F.), we were introduced to Gatti backstage. I told him then I thought  that - one day - he should get the Concertgebouw. That day has arrived.

Here's where I got it from. They make absolutely no mention of it, so I have no idea HOW I found a link to the Gatti/Concertgebouw M3. But they have it.

http://www.operapassion.com/new-mp4-s-july-2016.html

« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 07:32:39 PM by barry guerrero »

Offline umbernisitani

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Re: future of Mahler in Amsterdam is solid - very solid!
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2016, 01:22:23 PM »
That RPO M5 is a real sleeper. Gatti and the orchestra absolutely pour their heart and soul into the music, and that brass section is mind-blowing. I don't know if it's still in print, but God it's good. I look forward to Gatti's Mahler with the RCO.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: future of Mahler in Amsterdam is solid - very solid!
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2016, 12:37:27 AM »
I thought the first and third and fourth movements of his M5 were rather 'ordinary', but the start of the 2nd movement was amazing, and the finale was - as ALWAYS - quite effective (unless the conductor does the big 'slow down' too soon before the reprise of the main brass chorale near the end). They have solid brass in the RPO, but as with many British string sections - for some odd reason - they were slightly under-powered in the celli and double basses. English orchestras always have those somewhat odd sounding clarinets, and I'm no fan of the Paiste tam-tams they use. In short, the RPO ain't the Concertgebouw. Although they may have more 'aggressive' brass (particularly the horns).

Gatti's M4 with the RPO was more to my liking, and had the excellent Ruth Ziesack for the soprano part. 
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 12:58:02 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline umbernisitani

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Re: future of Mahler in Amsterdam is solid - very solid!
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2016, 04:02:57 AM »
Yeah, the RPO strings aren't much to write home about, but their gutsy brass section shines, and Gatti is hugely exciting. A similar opinion applies to Mackerras' RLPO reading which is also fantastic (and shares much of the same virtues and vices).

I've always had a problem with the RCO's lower brass section: much too tepid most of the time, and when they play out the sound is narrow and shrill. This probably explains why I've never warmed to any of their Mahler 6ths (which absolutely need a huge lower brass sound after those hammerblows). On the other hand, they're quite successful at Mahler 5 (Haitink Kerstmatinees, Chailly and Jansons are all very fine).

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: future of Mahler in Amsterdam is solid - very solid!
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2016, 08:24:49 AM »
Yeah, sometimes the Concertgebouw has the opposite problem. Their horns blend real well with the woodwinds, but don't  usually cut through a lot. I think that has a lot to do with how they're positioned in the hall. Their woodwinds and percussion are excellent. But yes, their low brass could stand to be a tad stronger.

Offline Freddy van Maurik

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Re: future of Mahler in Amsterdam is solid - very solid!
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2016, 02:08:01 PM »
Well, I'll be attending Gatti's M2 concert two weeks from now. I'll try and report back here how the brass section performed.

Cheers!
Freddy

Offline Freddy van Maurik

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Re: future of Mahler in Amsterdam is solid - very solid!
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2016, 03:17:19 PM »
Well, it's been almost 3 weeks now...

This was possibly the best M2 I have ever heard, and most certainly the best I've heard 'live'!
Gatti got the orchestra to play very blunt, rough and even aggresive. There were some minor mistakes in playing because of this, and at one point an offstage french horn was even a quarter note too early, but still... Gatti and his orchestra were able to tell me a story that was extremely interesting and exciting to listen to, and kept me on the edge of my seat for the entire evening!
It was filmed, presumably for TV-broadcast, but this may well end up on YouTube or even on a RCO-Live bluray-disc! Yay!!

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: future of Mahler in Amsterdam is solid - very solid!
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2016, 05:11:53 PM »
Thanks Freddy. It's great to hear that Gatti is lighting a fire underneath them. It was very odd how Jansons' Mahler could sound so ossified in Amsterdam, yet his Mahler in Munich and Oslo could sound just the opposite. Anyway, it would be great if RCO Live (whatever it's called) preserves it.

Offline Freddy van Maurik

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Re: future of Mahler in Amsterdam is solid - very solid!
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2017, 07:17:01 AM »
Hi Barry,

I notice that MediciTV mentions it, and names C-Major as producer... so that might point in the direction of u future release on DVD/BluRay...
Yay!!

Offline barryguerrero

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Re: future of Mahler in Amsterdam is solid - very solid!
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2017, 08:07:29 AM »
Sweet. Thanks Freddie.  8)

Settembrini

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Re: future of Mahler in Amsterdam is solid - very solid!
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2017, 11:43:59 AM »
'This was possibly the best M2 I have ever heard, and most certainly the best I've heard 'live'!'

Did we hear the same concert? There's no accounting for taste of course and I certainly respect your opinion, but I thought it was a terrible, shallow and loud hack job (as usual with Gatti). Or, as an orchestra member told me afterwords: 'He's just not a good enough conductor.' I alway believed the finale of the Second is one of Mahler weakest compositions, and it takes a really bad conductor like Gatti to convince me I'm right.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 10:01:11 PM by Settembrini »

Offline barryguerrero

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Re: future of Mahler in Amsterdam is solid - very solid!
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2017, 06:41:40 AM »
I'm not in any way denying you of your opinion, as I'm a great believer that two people can hear the same exact thing and have opposite, subjective reactions to it. As a musician myself, I would just warn one not to take the opinions of individual musicians too seriously. Here in S.F., the musicians of the S.F. Symphony started a nasty rumor than Herbert Blomstedt didn't really know music all that well. They then got someone very different when Tilson-Thomas took over. Now, 25 years later, Blomstedt is highly revered as a guest conductor and as "Conductor Laureate", while the sun is quickly fading on MTT's tenure here. The music industry is loaded with examples like this, and I think that orchestra musicians are often times the poorest judges of the results of their own labors. What the musicians in S.F. didn't like was that Blomstedt was such a 'task master' in rehearsal - something that American musicians are sensitive to, because of the bad-old times when people like Fritz Reiner and Arthur Rodzinski were almost the norm (Szell could be pretty tough too).

But let me take this in another direction: is having someone who is sort of an interpretive maverick, such as Daniele Gatti, really any worse than the endless parade of four-square, cookie cutter, "Mahler lite" performances emanating from the likes of Mariss Jansons?   .    .     .   

Under Jansons, the more 'classical' approach of Bernard Haitink had simply become ossified. That's my view of it. The Concertgebouw was due to go in a completely different direction, or just learn to perform conductor-less. Regardless, I'd like to hear the results for myself and judge for myself. Who knows   .    .   .   it might just be that Gatti does M3 really well but not M2 (however, I'm incline to trust what Freddie says).
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 06:41:42 PM by barryguerrero »

Offline barryguerrero

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Re: future of Mahler in Amsterdam is solid - very solid!
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2017, 07:25:50 AM »
Here are three endings of M2 with the Concertgebouw, one each with Gatti, Chailly and Jansons. Without further editorializing, I think Chailly may be the best compromise of the three. I would put Jansons at the bottom.

Gatti:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DDmXoW4dFE

Chailly:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF_pWIBTWw8

Jansons: (aka "Beaver Face"):   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHsFIv8VA7w



OT, but here's an interview with Gatti at La Scala, Milan regarding "Die Meistersinger" and Wagner in general. I really like what he has to say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcuXs5Md3zY
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 07:46:44 AM by barryguerrero »

Settembrini

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Re: future of Mahler in Amsterdam is solid - very solid!
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2017, 08:09:29 AM »
Actually, I was referring to Freddy van Maurik's comment that this was 'possibly the best M2 I have ever heard,' so you weren't denying me of anything. You're right about the opinions of individual orchestra members, but the opinion that Gatti just isn't a first rate conductor seems to be shared by many orchestra members, members of the choir, critics and quite a few people in the audience, as far as I can tell (of course, that doesn't necessarily make it true). Personally, I believe Chailly was the last great chief conductor of the RCO and I never liked the Mahler lite (let alone his Bruckner) of Jansons, who was always better in rehearsals. Having attended all of the Mahler 2's you've posted, I would certainly agree that Chailly is the best compromise.

By the way, I think you're being too kind when you refer to Gatti as an 'interpretive maverick,' there just doesn't seem to be an interpretation at all. Very loud, very slow, very soft and very fast becomes tiresome very quickly.. (his recent La Mer was a complete travesty, I've heard student orchestras play the Symfonie Fantastique better than the RCO under Gatti and his 'interpretation' of Berg's Three Orchestral Pieces showed a stunning lack of understanding of the music, again, it was just very, very loud and stupid). But, like you, I too am a believer that two people can hear the same exact thing and have opposite, subjective reactions to it.

Offline Freddy van Maurik

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Re: future of Mahler in Amsterdam is solid - very solid!
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2017, 12:21:26 PM »
Well, after hearing a radio broadcast (just recently, on BBC Radio 3) of this concert, I most certainly wasn't so sure about this being the best M2 I ever heard. But I still think it was (one of) the best I heard live, simply because that's what I felt like after attending this concert. There was something in Gatti's conducting that made the members of the orchestra play from the edge of their seat, and it really worked - for me (and many others with me)!
Maybe this playing from the edge of their seat was due to the fact that Gatti is not a good enough conductor, maybe it was because he forced them out of their 'Jansons-comfort-zone', but I loved the result there and then. Upon hearing it again I still liked it, but I certainly see what you mean by 'very loud, very slow, very soft and very fast becomes tiresome very quickly'.
I don't think Gatti is as bad as you make him out to be. His music-making may just not be your cup of tea. I loved his Fontane di Roma from the inaugural concert, and I also like his Symphonie Fantastique (not the best, but I've heard it much worse). But hey, I don't consider the finale of M2 to be among his weakest compositions, either...  ;)

So yes, I too respect your opinion. Apparently we're hearing or listening for different things (oh, I do agree that the Berg op.6 is quite badly done...).

Cheers!

 

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