Opinions of Haitink/Pentatone M8 (?)

[barryguerrero]

If you respond please be clear if your speaking of the Pentatone reissue, or one of the Philips issues. I'm specifically looking for input on the Pentatone/Haitink Mahler 8. Here's a link to a very interesting review from Opera Today. I've always felt that the Haitink was a bit better than the general consensus, particularly since I've never cared for the Solti. My favorite early M8 recordings were/are Horenstein, Abravanel, Kubelik (Audite) and the much maligned Bernstein/Columbia.

http://www.operatoday.com/content/2006/07/mahler_symphony.php

[waderice]

Barry, I have the  Pentatone SACD, and the Solti in Blu-Ray audio.  Assuming that both recordings were remastered to 24/96 audio, with only the disk playback formats being different and neither format being better than the other, plus artistic matters aside, I unequivocally prefer the Pentatone Haitink over Solti Blu-Ray, sound-wise.  Note that my comments are made listening in standard stereo and not multi-channel, and refer to only to these two releases I state at the offset.  It's been a few months since I listened to these two recordings, so I'm going off of memory.

Both recordings were made at almost the same time (about a month apart), so neither should have any advantage over the other, technologically.  Why I feel Haitink has the advantage is that his was recorded in a more ideal environment (the Concertgebouw concert hall vs. Vienna's Sofiensaal for Solti).  The Concertgebouw also has its own glorious-sounding organ, whereas the Sofiensaal did not, so that required that an organ elsewhere be recorded and overlaid on the Solti master recording.  Additionally, the offstage brass in Solti were recorded separately, for some unknown reason.  I also believe that the orchestra and choruses in Solti were overmiked to beyond all practicality.

With the Concertgebouw having the clear advantage as a better recording environment for a work like M8, that obviously allowed for a more natural-sounding recording, with likely fewer microphones, tape edits, and hopefully, no separate recording overlays as were done with Solti.  It's a generally-held belief with sound engineers that the more tinkering you do with a recording post-session, the more degraded the sound will become.  Such is the case I feel happened with Solti as compared to Haitink.

If I have any nits to pick with Haitink, I felt his soloists were recorded a bit too close for my taste.

Clearly, Haitink wins over Solti in this contest, sound-wise.

Your inquiry came a bit too soon for me to adequately compare the other M8's you mention in the best possible available sound, all of the following of which I have.  Pristine Audio has remastered Horenstein's M8 to a 24-bit sound download from the BBC Legends CD, and HD Tracks has the entire Kubelik cycle available as a 24/96 download.  I have also, Bernstein/Columbia as a Japanese SACD and Abravanel as a Classic Records high-quality LP release.  More to come on this someday soon, as I'm able.

Wade

[barryguerrero]

Thank you, Wade. That's most helpful and I'll look for an inexpensive copy of the Haitink/Pentatone - even if it doesn't have an ending to knock one's socks off.

[GL]

Barry, I have the  Pentatone SACD, and the Solti in Blu-Ray audio.  Assuming that both recordings were remastered to 24/96 audio, with only the disk playback formats being different and neither format being better than the other, plus artistic matters aside, I unequivocally prefer the Pentatone Haitink over Solti Blu-Ray, sound-wise.  Note that my comments are made listening in standard stereo and not multi-channel, and refer to only to these two releases I state at the offset.  It's been a few months since I listened to these two recordings, so I'm going off of memory.

Both recordings were made at almost the same time (about a month apart), so neither should have any advantage over the other, technologically.  Why I feel Haitink has the advantage is that his was recorded in a more ideal environment (the Concertgebouw concert hall vs. Vienna's Sofiensaal for Solti).  The Concertgebouw also has its own glorious-sounding organ, whereas the Sofiensaal did not, so that required that an organ elsewhere be recorded and overlaid on the Solti master recording.  Additionally, the offstage brass in Solti were recorded separately, for some unknown reason.  I also believe that the orchestra and choruses in Solti were overmiked to beyond all practicality.

With the Concertgebouw having the clear advantage as a better recording environment for a work like M8, that obviously allowed for a more natural-sounding recording, with likely fewer microphones, tape edits, and hopefully, no separate recording overlays as were done with Solti.  It's a generally-held belief with sound engineers that the more tinkering you do with a recording post-session, the more degraded the sound will become.  Such is the case I feel happened with Solti as compared to Haitink.

If I have any nits to pick with Haitink, I felt his soloists were recorded a bit too close for my taste.

Clearly, Haitink wins over Solti in this contest, sound-wise.

Your inquiry came a bit too soon for me to adequately compare the other M8's you mention in the best possible available sound, all of the following of which I have.  Pristine Audio has remastered Horenstein's M8 to a 24-bit sound download from the BBC Legends CD, and HD Tracks has the entire Kubelik cycle available as a 24/96 download.  I have also, Bernstein/Columbia as a Japanese SACD and Abravanel as a Classic Records high-quality LP release.  More to come on this someday soon, as I'm able.

Wade

You should use the Decca Legends version of the Solti for comparisons.

Nowadays belittleling, even slandering Solti is rather fashionable, but this does not change the fact that his Eight, having one of the finest ensemble of singers available (like the Haitink's) and benefitting from Solti's elan and fabulous qualities of opera conductor (unlike the Haitink's), remains one of the very best.

More or less a year ago, I was at home with a friend who, having his head full of the crap you read around about Solti, among other things, kept extolling this or that version of the Eight at the expenses of the Solti's. He even mentioned the Haitink. I decided to make an experiment. I said: "Ok, let's make a comparison". I played the CD with the beginning of the Solti's but I said it was the Haitink's. He was full of praise, bringing my attention to this or that detail. Then I played the Haitink saying that it was the Solti's and he said: "You see? It doesn't really work like the Haitink!" I stopped him and the recording, I took him to the CD player and I showed him what we were actually listening to. And you can imagine the embarrassment.

[barryguerrero]

GL,

It's not a question of slamming Solti because it's fashionable. I don't care for the Solti M8 (never have) for rather objective reasons; reasons that only become more apparent to me as the remasterings and delivery systems improve. It's not terrible - of course it isn't! But it just leaves me cold from a purely musical standpoint.

I'm well aware that it's a very popular recording, so I suggest that it is I - and others of the same mind - who are swimming against the tide, and not the other way around (not that it matters in the slightest).

I would also argue (politely, I trust) that the "operatic" quality that you mention is part of the overall problem. To my taste (or lack thereof) the best overall cast can be heard on either Kubelik recording, where the solo singing is treated in a more 'oratorio' fashion (as opposed to overtly operatic). Something of the same could be said of the more recent Chailly/Concertgebouw recording.

The lineup of soloists is also really good on the recent DeBilly/RSO Wien (Oehms) recording, which boasts the excellent tenor contribution of the late Johan Botha (also outstanding on the Boulez/DG recording - the complete opposite of the Solti). But because the DeBilly recording was a one-off, live recording from Wien's larger Konzerthaus (like the Bernstein M8 dvd), it's not the most clear sounding recording of the work. Still, I would take its more natural flow and natural mix of timbres - because nothing is overdubbed or multi-miked - over Solti's recording any day.

http://www.allmusic.com/album/mahler-symphony-no-8-mw0002113275

Pretty much all of these can be heard on Spotify or even Youtube. However, for folks coming to Mahler 8 for the first time, I would suggest that a dvd might really be better since it includes the visual element (as well as putting the text up on the screen). I own four dvd's of M8, all of which I feel are really very good: Bernstein/VPO; Chailly/Leipzig Gewandhaus; Dudamel (and his cast of a thousand) and Paavo Jarvi (which comes with a very good 7th). I really like the larger choral forces in the Dudamel (good cast too), but I feel the best overall compromise is the Chailly. Aside from his M8 having a solid cast, the Gewandhaus has a very nice sounding organ and the percussion at the end of the symphony are excellent.

As I've stated numerous times, I feel that the best ending of Mahler 8 - ever - can be heard on the Gary Betini and Markus Stenz recordings, both of which are from Cologne's Philharmonie. But for me - with all elements and facets of the work considered - the best overall cd recording of Mahler 8, from start to finish, is the Jonathan Nott one from Bamberg. Yes, sound quality is a big factor in that as well. I'm also quite fond of the Colin Davis, in spite of its obviously flaws.

That said, however, I also own numerous one-off's and pirates from various performers in the U.S. and around the world that are very, very good. I really wouldn't discount any of them except perhaps in sound quality. I thought last year's Y. N-S/Philadelphia M8 was truly something special.

The over-riding, important issue is that people simply listen and come to enjoy the music. Which recording they like is simply sport and of secondary importance.

Thanks for reading.

[GL]

You are making some confusion between objective reasons and prejudices, but it doesn't matter.

[barryguerrero]

These are the reasons - objective or otherwise - why I'm not crazy about the Solti recording. I'll list them in order of importance (for me, not others).

1). A huge mismatch between the soft-edged singing of the Viennese choirs, and the hard-edge, nearly 'brittle' sound of the CSO trumpets and trombones. In order to compensate, it sounds to me as though the choirs had to be miked louder and closer (photos of the sessions show that everybody is placed all over the place).

2). While the ending of Part II has tons of organ and brass - all of it very well intune - the percussion is wanting, particularly the tam-tam. Listen to Bertini, Stenz, Nott and Chailly/Gewandhaus for recordings where the organ, brass AND percussion are truly balanced and fully integrated. I would also argue that Solti -  like Bernstein, Haitink and others (he's not alone in this) - is a tad too fast with the ending.

3). The solo singing. While obviously a very good cast is on hand, it's a bit too operatic in quality for me. I will admit that I've never been terrible fond of Rene Kolo, although he's good in his own way. Shirley-Quirk and Y. Minton do not strike me as great singers. That said, all casts have some weaknesses. Regardless, Decca may reinforce this feeling with me by miking the soloists closer than I care for (and again, the Solti would not be the only one that's miked that way).

4.) As the technology improves, the multi-track quality of the Solti recording only becomes more apparent, not less.

5.) I really dislike the beginning of Part I under Solti. The opening is very fast and the organ is quite present. But then he slows down too much for the next section and permits his line-up of soloists to just wallow all over the place. It strikes me as a tad unmusical and not a pleasure to listen to. The end of Part I is fast and exciting (with tons of organ), but I'd rather it be a tad less 'pressured' sounding, and that the offstage brass be allowed to register more clearly without having to blast their parts. Boulez, for example, takes this ending much slower but everything registers very clearly. It's thrilling in a different, more natural manner. I'm not crazy about the fast and hectic sounding ending to Part I under MTT either.

Anyway, I've got to run - I've blabbed on and on enough.

[GL]

These are the reasons - objective or otherwise - why I'm not crazy about the Solti recording. I'll list them in order of importance (for me, not others).

1). A huge mismatch between the soft-edged singing of the Viennese choirs, and the hard-edge, nearly 'brittle' sound of the CSO trumpets and trombones. In order to compensate, it sounds to me as though the choirs had to be miked louder and closer (photos of the sessions show that everybody is placed all over the place).

2). While the ending of Part II has tons of organ and brass - all of it very well intune - the percussion is wanting, particularly the tam-tam. Listen to Bertini, Stenz, Nott and Chailly/Gewandhaus for recordings where the organ, brass AND percussion are truly balanced and fully integrated. I would also argue that Solti -  like Bernstein, Haitink and others (he's not alone in this) - is a tad too fast with the ending.

3). The solo singing. While obviously a very good cast is on hand, it's a bit too operatic in quality for me. I will admit that I've never been terrible fond of Rene Kolo, although he's good in his own way. Shirley-Quirk and Y. Minton do not strike me as great singers. That said, all casts have some weaknesses. Regardless, Decca may reinforce this feeling with me by miking the soloists closer than I care for (and again, the Solti would not be the only one that's miked that way).

4.) As the technology improves, the multi-track quality of the Solti recording only becomes more apparent, not less.

5.) I really dislike the beginning of Part I under Solti. The opening is very fast and the organ is quite present. But then he slows down too much for the next section and permits his line-up of soloists to just wallow all over the place. It strikes me as a tad unmusical and not a pleasure to listen to. The end of Part I is fast and exciting (with tons of organ), but I'd rather it be a tad less 'pressured' sounding, and that the offstage brass be allowed to register more clearly without having to blast their parts. Boulez, for example, takes this ending much slower but everything registers very clearly. It's thrilling in a different, more natural manner. I'm not crazy about the fast and hectic sounding ending to Part I under MTT either.

Anyway, I've got to run - I've blabbed on and on enough.

According to Hurwits (who gave a 9/9 to the Decca Legends re-issue):

Georg Solti’s Mahler Eighth always has stood high on the list of recommendable versions, even for people who don’t normally warm to his nervy, high-powered approach to this composer (and just about everyone else as well). A true “sonic spectacular” on LP, the performance originally transferred poorly to CD, where the audio manipulations–the dubbed-in organ part and shifting perspectives of the soloists and offstage brass–were all too obvious. What Decca has achieved in this most recent remastering is a more integrated and natural sound picture, one that allows the listener to focus more on the performance’s purely musical qualities, which include an outstanding lineup of soloists (still the best the work has received) and some fabulous playing by the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. The fact that the performance has been reduced to a single, mid-priced disc is another huge bonus, and for many that may well make this the Mahler Eighth of choice. If I have any reservation at all, it’s that the closing pages don’t quite ignite the way they should, and do, in versions by Bertini (EMI), Bernstein (Sony), and Horenstein (BBC Classics). However, this is a very minor criticism of an otherwise splendid production. [10/17/1999]

(https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-3013/)

Anyway, according to someone he is the second worst critic around, isn't he?

[GL]

You are making some confusion between objective reasons and prejudices, but it doesn't matter.

It does not matter because I know that fighting against judgments and prejudices according to which, among other things,

1) Kaufmann's awful stunt in the Lied von der Erde would be good (Clemens on the Guardian was right, even too kind and his use of the term hubrys quite appropriate);

2) reading a book means thinking with someone's else brain;

3) Levine is no great Mahler conductor because of his melodramatic inclinations as a opera conductor (he has been was on the very greatest in the 1970s just because of his melodramatic inclinations as an opera conductor; Mahler had it too by the way and I am sure that Mahler was a great Mahler conductor);

4) Solti was not great conductor;

5) the flat, dead, endless Adagietto of Vanska and the ridiculously fast Seventh's Finale of Jarvi are good (they simply made violence to the music);

6) Vanska's Fifth is not a failure (it is, on a massive scale)

7) the emotional side of the Fifth should downplayed because it plays by itself (this means that even a child being able to mark time with a baton can conduct it)

Fischer's recent Third, a truly great performance can be tossed away because of the alto (who anyway is very good);

9) all the focusing on the trees of some technical or colouristic details while losing the sight of the forest of the whole movement or the whole symphony,

well, fighting against judgments and prejudices like the above sampled is a waste of time because people with prejudices are anti-dialectical. I am taking a bit of time to counterpoint all that because I think about Mahler's music neophytes that happen to find this forum and I do not want them ending up staying aloof, for example, Levine's Fifth or Solti's Eight without experiencing them with an open mind.

[waderice]

You should use the Decca Legends version of the Solti for comparisons.

Nowadays belittleling, even slandering Solti is rather fashionable, but this does not change the fact that his Eight, having one of the finest ensemble of singers available (like the Haitink's) and benefitting from Solti's elan and fabulous qualities of opera conductor (unlike the Haitink's), remains one of the very best.

More or less a year ago, I was at home with a friend who, having his head full of the crap you read around about Solti, among other things, kept extolling this or that version of the Eight at the expenses of the Solti's. He even mentioned the Haitink. I decided to make an experiment. I said: "Ok, let's make a comparison". I played the CD with the beginning of the Solti's but I said it was the Haitink's. He was full of praise, bringing my attention to this or that detail. Then I played the Haitink saying that it was the Solti's and he said: "You see? It doesn't really work like the Haitink!" I stopped him and the recording, I took him to the CD player and I showed him what we were actually listening to. And you can imagine the embarrassment.

GL,

Didn't you notice in my comments that I wasn't slandering or belittling Solti?  My comments were based on quality of sound, not artistic matters.  Also, why should I use a 44.1-kHz, 16-bit CD (the Decca Legends version you refer to) to compare sound quality, when I had a Blu-ray 24-bit, 96-kHz audio disk, mastered in superior sound?  It's the difference between steak and ground beef.  Even though the Decca Legends disk says the recording was remastered to 24/96, that particular CD you hold in your hand is still 44.1-kHz, 16-bit.  So in this instance, if there is any blame is to be placed, it should be on the recording engineers, either at the recording sessions, in editing, and down the line to the various iterations (to include the Blu-ray) we've seen of the Solti recording.

Wade

[barryguerrero]

Why are you fighting at all?   .   .   .  calm down. None of this is of any real importance and just continue to like what you like. Let others do the same.

By the way, I think Levine's Mahler is generally very good. I just don't care for his very loud timpani mikings, but that's just one detail. I think he's done the best recordings of M3, M4 and M7 with the CSO (M7 would be a tie with Abbado, I suppose [I prefer Abbado's Berlin remake]). I'm not crazy about Marilyn Horne in Mahler, but that's not a deal breaker. The M4 with Judith Blegen is quite good!

Although they are very well played, I'm not that crazy about his Philly M5, M9 and M10. That's just me - I think they're a tad heavy and slow. But they still have that Philadelphia factor. One of the 'pirate' M8 recordings I possess is the one Levine made in Boston when he first got there. It's very good.

As for Solti, I think he was better in his earlier years than in his later years. I saw Solti conduct once in the late '80s and, quite frankly, it wasn't good at all. It could have just been an off day for everyone, but nobody in the orchestra seemed to be paying any attention to his excessive flickering of his wrists. To me, his best overall recording is "Elektra" and, of course, his "Ring" is world famous. I prefer the Bohm/Philips "Ring", but I could easily live with the Solti. His first Chicago Beethoven cycle was quite good, as was his Brahms (including the Requiem). I don't care for him in Haydn, Schumann or Bruckner. But his Mozart is often times quite good and most of his Richard Strauss is very good. Solti did a fair amount of Verdi and I'm just not a big enough fan of Verdi's music to comment upon that. Obviously, Solti was a really good with Liszt and fairly good with Bartok.

As for Solti's Mahler, I think his earlier recordings are generally better. I think if Decca issued a box with his LSO M1/M2/M3/M9; Amsterdam M4, combined with the Chicago M5-M8, that would be a very good box, indeed, and would place his Mahler in a much better light for posterity. But let's be honest, his Chicago M2 and M3 are not very good, relatively speaking, while Kiri Te Kanawa is not a great match for M4 (an otherwise so-so recording, relatively speaking). His Chicago M9 is pretty good but suffers from early digital era 'glare'.

By the way, I feel somewhat the same about Bernstein - I generally prefer his earlier Mahler recordings with a few exceptions.

I'm not sure why I'm bothering to go on and on, GL. I have plenty of other things I should be doing. My opinions seem to really bother you, but I'm not going to alter them to make you - someone whom I don't know in the slightest - feel better. I think you should stick to your guns and not worry so much about what others think. That's good advice for life in general, don't you think?

[waderice]

Personally, I think it would be best for all of us to cease any further discussion on this thread.

Wade

[barryguerrero]

Now I am mad! Blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah, etc. (vamp until a catatonic state sets in)   

What was this thread, anyway?

[waderice]

 

[Phoenix]

So, with all of the above, no one really said if the Pentatone Haitink M8 sounds better than the Phillips pressing.    Regardless, this is definitely on my must get list, even though the Solti is the supreme-all-time-greatest-most-inspired recording  .  I've wanted this recording since it came out, but always kept putting off getting it. I think it's time, don't you?