What about Alma?

[Jot N. Tittle]

What is your attitude toward Alma Schilndler Mahler Gropius Werfel? Was she a necessity to Mahler's renown or did she arrive too late to make a difference, except to affect his late works? On the whole do you think she was a positive influence on his music, of no significant influence, or a negative influence? As you learn about her, how do you react to her as a person? From what you know, do you think you would like her?

I'll offer my thoughts later.

     . & '

[barry guerrero]

Obviously, it's a complex topic with no easy answers. Musically speaking, Natalie Bauer Lechner would have been a better life partner for Mahler, since she was obsessively devoted to him and his music. But matters of the heart so often times defy logic, do they not? It's difficult to imagine Mahler's music turning out any better than it actually did. Afterall, he never heard a single note of his last three works (incredible!). But it's also impossible to judge just how much, or how little Alma may have had to do with any of that. Obviously, the 10th symphony very much incorporates the tense and desperate atmoshere of Mahler's psyche, after his discovery of Alma's infidelity. Beyond that, would any of his music have turned out any differently? Perhaps so, but it's a moot point.

[Jot N. Tittle]

Is Barry the only member to venture a view? He is correct as to the complexity of the situation. And I think he is also correct is suggesting that Natalie Bauer Lechner would have served Mahler better (so to speak). Does anyone think Mahler's treatment of her in the end was somewhat shabby?

Anybody care to respond with a more personal reaction to the "Alma" you know?

     . & '

[barry guerrero]

Well yes, of course Mahler's final treatment of Natalie was shabby. But he simply was not in love with her. Go figure! When he was introduced to Alma, he was quite smitten with her. After all, Alma was 18, artistic, and smart. Who wouldn't be taken by that? It's all very sad, in a way. But matters of the heart seldom follow anything logical except for one dictum:  the rich marry the rich; usually.

From what you know, do you think you would like her (Alma)?

I would not have wanted to steal her away from Mahler, or betray him, or make him anxious by having a "quicky" with Alma - something that wasn't all that terribly hard to talk her into, post Mahler. So, my guess is that I would have been somewhat fascinated with her - maybe even smitten - but I also would have kept my distance and kept up my defenses. I'm not someone who's terribly dependent on the flattery of women. Obviously, some of these artistic and "important" men truly needed to have their egos reninforced. I guess it just comes with the territory.

[Ivor]

Considering my take on people -how complicated and , in many ways,unfathomable we are,my answer to most of these questions is,I have no idea.

At this stage,I have only two observations.

I bet her affairs were stressful to mahler and may have adversely affected his health.

On the other hand,I,for one,am grateful that,having heard the BBC tape of the 10th,she gave her permission for M10 to be performed. Thus,in a sense,  we were given the wonderful experiences that M10 can offer. Hopefully she realised that the world had another Mahler masterpiece;even,perhaps,that she owed it to the world to relent. Good call !! to say the least.



     Ivor

[Amphissa]

What is the mystery with Alma? We have seen it again and again. The tumultuous relationships of artists - this is what they thrive on. They need the angst. They need the emotional complexity. With Natalie, Mahler has no tension, no volatility. With Alma, he has passions - anger and love and jealosy and .... Artists are often at their most creative when they are struggling with their emotions. And they know this. If things become too placid, they create turmoil in their lives to stir their passions, fuel their emotions. Without Alma, Mahler would have been a much less powerful composer.

[barry guerrero]

Amphissa, I agree with most everything you say here. But in the case of Mahler, I'm not sure that his music would have turned out all that much different sans Alma. Maybe so, but I have my doubts. I say that for two reasons: fist, by the time Mahler met Alma, he was already up to his 5th symphony. I think he aleady had a good idea where he wanted to go, but that's just a hunch. Second, I really feel that Mahler was, somehow, a bit above what you are saying. Again, I can't prove that with anything tangible. But I'm really not so sure that he would have allowed temperment and personal matters to get in the way of his composing; or influence his compositions all that much. I think that he already had a strong sense of himself, and pretty much knew exactly where he was heading, musically speaking. Anyway, that's just a hunch - I could be wrong.

[Ivor]

It might also be interesting to speculate on whether M's love-music,e.g.andante of 6,would have been different if his love had been another.

Amphissa and Barry,you may be right - will we ever know? - I take more the 'everyone is unique' line,rather than being happy with generalisations. And that we can never really know the reality of anyone else. That would be possible only by being them. IMO.

[barry guerrero]

"It might also be interesting to speculate on whether M's love-music,e.g.andante of 6,would have been different if his love had been another"

You mean, he would have written a different andante if he hadn't rejected Natalie? Well, I really don't think that there's any evidence that the slow movement to M6 has anything to do with Alma. Like any good, long symphony, the sixth had to have a slow movement. Just taking that movement at face value, it appears to have a lot more to do with retreating from the hub-bub of the lower lands, into the peace and calm of the Austrian/Bavarian highlands. There's a lot of personal reflection involved, obviously. And the of sort tragic trepidation that's expressed through its climactic passage, stems from personal insecurities that get projected onto a much bigger canvas - a global stage, if you will. I hear it more as a sort of foretelling of things to come. Certainly, the global scale of the finale would be bear that out. I really don't think that the 6th has much to do with personal problems at all.

I also question just sincere the business is about the adagietto to M5 being a "love song" to Alma, really is. I suspect that he had musical ideas for the adagietto already. Alma's timing just happened to be perfect.

Barry

[Ivor]

Sorry,I had a senior moment. I didn't mean the andante,I meant the second theme of the first movement,of course.

[Jot N. Tittle]

Didn't Gustav say something about composing music? That he didn't compose the music, it composed him--or sumpin' lak at.

With all the information we have about Alma--her diaries, letters, and biographies--we have some idea of what sort of person she most likely was (even with all the usual caveats applied). So, how do you think you would react to her in person? That is the question I was trying to pry out of y'all.

     . & '

[barry guerrero]

Jot,

I hope I answered your question. Perhaps you're trying to get others to respond. There's no question that she was a fine conversationalist, and had the ability to make any man - whomever she happened to turn her undivided attention towards - feel singularly important. Who wouldn't respond to that? I'm just saying that I wouldn't have wanted to take advantage of the situation by ratcheting things up to the lust/obsession level, which many of her admirers did. I think that showed a distinct lack of character on the part of some of the men who suddenly felt that they had to possess her - or at least get her to "put out", to cut to the chase. Some say that Kokoshka was truly the love of her life. I think that Kokoschka represented the more youthful, impulsive love that she was somewhat denied by Mahler. In a sense, she was making up for lost time.

[Ivor]

Jot,

My opinion is that every single relationship is unique,without exception,and that therefore I couldn't know how i'd respond to anyone else in person till I met them,even people I've hitherto only ever corresponded with.

For reasons I won't go into,I suspect I'd find her quite simpatico,if annoying. That's a superficial assessment.

[barry guerrero]

"For reasons I won't go into,I suspect I'd find her quite simpatico,if annoying"

Well, exactly. Even though she was quite bright, raised in an artistic family, and was a good conversationalist, she was no Mahler. As all know, she studied music - somewhat - with Zemlinsky. Problem is, I don't think that Zemlinsky was a terribly good composer. I don't feel that Alma's compositions are all that great either. However, she was very young, and just starting out. Unfortunately, she permitted herself to get swallowed up by Mahler. By his terms, she was basically forbidden to continue her composing efforts. Not exactly a great moment in the history of feminism.

[Leo K]

Jot, I've thought about your question, and I'm pretty sure I would like her.  I don't feel she totally understood Mahler's music, and only connected to him in the context of what she knew about him personally, and that would influence her perception of his music(obviously since she lived with him).  There were times when she intuitively understood something about his work...the 5th and 6th Symphonies in particular.  Her telegram to Mengleberg (regarding his question over the 6th) that stated "scherzo first andante second" says that she understood the 6th (my opinion).

Yet, I have the feeling she wasn't all that "personal" with him, since he may not have allowed that on some level.  Both were perhaps unwilling to share themselves.  It sounds like Mahler discovered this problem too late, and was on his way of losing her when he died.

--Leo