Mahler 6 with 2 hammer strokes

[BeethovensQuill]

Hello everyone, i havent posted in here for a long time, but wondered if anyone would be kind enough to list some recordings of Mahler 6 with 2 hammer strokes instead of the 3.  I'm just at the moment looking at buying another Mahler 6.  I have the following recordings of Mahler 6 - Tilson-Thomas, Nott, Saraste, Tennstedt (studio and live), Karajan.  I havent listened to any of my recordings of the 6th in awhile so one of those may be one with 2 hammer strokes.

The 2 recordings of 6 i am debating over are the Harding and Young, and the Young is slightly ahead from some brief listens on spotify.

Thanks very much

[James Meckley]

Almost all available recordings of Mahler 6 feature just two hammer blows. Every one you list, including the two you're considering for purchase include just two hammer blows. Others will likely chime in, but the only recordings I can think of that use three hammer blows are the two by Ben Zander (IMP and Telarc) and Bernstein's DG recording, though Bernstein puts the third blow in the wrong place. It's possible that Charles Mackerras used three in his hard-to-find BBC Music Magazine disc, but I'm not able to check that right now.

James

[BeethovensQuill]

ah right, i was reading a review of the Simone Young which said it included 3 hammer strokes, so obviously the reviewer is confused and then confused me into thinking that 3 was the preferred option. sorry to be a complete and utter stupid person, my Mahler credentials have now hit rock bottom

[James Meckley]

Mea culpa! Your reviewer is right and I was wrong—the Simone Young recording does indeed include the third hammer blow. But my basic point remains true: there is only a handful of commercial recordings which feature the third hammer blow and the two-hammer-blow version is by far the more common option. Sorry for the confusion.

James

[barryguerrero]

Not only does the Simone Young recording have three hammer strokes, she gives more bars (measures) of the first version orchestration surrounding that stroke than Zanders did. She goes first version from the measure before the 3rd stroke, to the very start of the funereal dirge for low brass. This is of real interest because there's a fascinating major/minor 'thang' that happens in the lower woodwinds that ain't there in the revision. It sounds great, too.

As I've said many times before, I wish somebody would give a performance - and make a recording - of the complete first version of the finale (lots more percussion!).

[BeethovensQuill]

What are your thoughts on the Harding and Young?  They sound slightly similar in the brief samples i have heard, but maybe i heard more passion from the Hamburg but better playing from the Bavarian's.

[barryguerrero]

I would say they're quite different. The Young one is much better recorded. Harding has a really good scherzo and generally faster tempi overall. Both orchestras are equally good, I'd say. The Harding is on one disc, while the S. Young is on two discs. Young is quite interesting at the third stroke.

One that you should also consider is the Pappano on EMI. It's well recorded, well played, has two hammer strokes and is good in all four movements. Amazon doesn't seem to have any cheap used copies at the moment, though.


https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-6-Gustav/dp/B005MLQF06/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1527146407&sr=1-1&keywords=mahler+6+pappano

[BeethovensQuill]

Hi Barry Thanks for your reply, i forgot to mention that i do own own the Papanno i never warmed to it that much though.  I may end up with both Harding and Young.

I really like the finale of the Tilson-Thomas, it just hits all the right aspects for me, as mentioned i havent listened to the 6th in a awhile so it might not work for me the same way it did previously.

[barryguerrero]

The finale of the MTT/SFS recording sounds on 'auto pilot' to me. I don't think he really liked it, or got 'into it' very much. More than anything, it really bugs me that they totally disregard the "muted" marking for the snare drum at the very spot where the third hammer blow exists in the first version. That undermines the whole point of that very moment. It's usually muted by simply switching the snares off. Instead, they play it quite loudly with the snares on.

Furthermore, you can get the effect of a mini hammer stroke, just by placing an accent at the start of the snare drum roll, with the snares turned off. It works very well.

For me, MTT's slow movement is turned into a sappy Adagio, which it ain't, while the scherzo is just there - nothing frightening or spooky about it. Again - just for me - it's a complete non starter. If I wanted a newer recording with an American orchestra, I would reach for Eshenbach/Philly, J. van Zweden/Dallas (a low level recording that needs to be turned way up [then it sounds great]), or even Vaenska/Minnesota.

If Chicago were a must (they never seem to do M6 all that great), I would rank them Abbado, Solti, then Haitink.

[barryguerrero]

I should also add, that if it weren't for the metallic "ping" hammer strokes, the Dohnanyi/Cleveland (Decca) M6 might very well be my favorite two-stroke Mahler 6. The playing and the sound are second to none. Dohnanyi's timings are very similar to Boulez/VPO.

How Dohnanyi managed to get metal in there - when the score clearly states that the hammer strokes are to be "non metallic" in sound - is way beyond me.

[BeethovensQuill]

Hi Barry, i had another listen to the Tilson-Thomas today although i only got half way through the 1st movement, and your right it sounds like auto pilot it just never catches fire.

[John Kim]

Um … I beg to differ. I like the MTT M6th a lot. For one thing, it has the great SACD sound. Second, the playing is impeccable. Third, I really like MTT's tempos in Finale that come with much flexibility; I like it that the allegro sections are pretty fast. It's true that he does not differentiae enough between I & II but I don't feel it never catches up with fire.

John

[barryguerrero]

OK, whatever. Two things really bug me, though: the misreading of the final snare drum roll in the finale, and the way he pulls the "Alma theme" just all over the place (back in the first movement).  I think the scherzo just sits there like a lump. Also, the slow movement ain't an Adagio. It just isn't.