Author Topic: Haitink/CSO M3 receives 7/8 rating from D.H. - I couldn't agree more.  (Read 18843 times)

Offline barry guerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3928
GUSTAV MAHLER
Symphony No. 3

Michelle DeYoung (mezzo-soprano)

Chicago Children's Choir
Chicago Symphony Orchestra & Chorus

Bernard Haitink

CSO Resound- 901 701(CD)
Reference Recording - Haitink (Philips); Bernstein (Sony or DG)

 
 

 
The Chicago Symphony under the leadership of Henry Fogel started the trend of releasing its own recordings, initially as a fundraising opportunity, so it was only a matter of time before the orchestra launched its own label more formally. While I certainly welcome the initiative, this first title represents a mixed success. On the surface, the orchestra is leading from strength: both it and Haitink have excellent Mahlerian credentials. But let's face it--the CSO already has one excellent Mahler 3 (Levine's; Solti's was dreadful), and so does Haitink (his first Concertgebouw recording; his Berlin remake was dreadful). Actually, if you throw in Haitink's live Amsterdam recordings and his Berlin video, this is his fifth Mahler Third, which, coming from a conductor often heard to moan about the excesses of the recording industry in this regard, seems little short of bizarre.

Unquestionably Haitink knows the work, and so does the Chicago Symphony, and the orchestra's legendary brass section certainly lives up to its collective reputation, particularly in the closing chorale of the finale. But this is a symphony that thrives on color, and here Haitink is at his weakest. His first recording featured an orchestra (the Concertgebouw) that at the time had such an individual timbral profile, and was so steeped in the Mahler tradition, that he couldn't help but take credit for the excellent results. That performance remains a favorite, if only because it has the most glowing, organ-like final chord ever captured. Here, in the first movement, Haitink misses those touches of color at lower dynamic levels from the percussion and the harps that help lend the work its special character.


There's also a certain staidness to the tempos, a lack of contrast in such places as the vulgar eruption of winds and brass before the first movement's recapitulation, and throughout the scherzo, that risks turning into dullness despite the excellent playing everywhere in evidence. Furthermore, the fifth movement simply lacks the picture-postcard brightness that Mahler builds into his scoring and that creates the atmosphere of brittle unreality that so brilliantly sets up the finale's serene opening (Bernstein I on Sony has never been equaled here). Mezzo-soprano Michelle DeYoung's voice also has developed what comes very close to a wobble, and this makes her work in both the fourth and fifth movements less than ideal. The engineering is clear and vivid, but also a bit flat in perspective, with the brass at times overbearing (not that fans of these players, who are legion, will care).


In sum, this is a good if flawed performance, but more to the point, a redundant one. If you want Chicago in this music, seek out Levine (particularly the Japanese RCA reissue), which also has a very significant asset in Marilyn Horne in the vocal bits. If you want Haitink, Philips has recently reissued his first and best Concertgebouw recording, coupled with a fine Das Klagende Lied. And if you must have Haitink and Chicago together, then you may want to consider this, but only if the identity of the artists is far more important than the actual musical results.


--David Hurwitz



 

Offline Damfino

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
I have not heard this recording, nor am i really excited about it.  I quite like Haitink's original Mahler recordings with the RCO, and his Christmas recordings with the same orchestra;  but new slower versions from Haitink do not really interest me.  However, I thought DH took a bit of a cheap shot here:

Quote
His first recording featured an orchestra (the Concertgebouw) that at the time had such an individual timbral profile, and was so steeped in the Mahler tradition, that he couldn't help but take credit for the excellent results.

He seems to be saying that it really didn't matter who conducted the RCO.  It's great that he felt compelled to praise a great orchestra, but I think that suggesting that Haitink was merely along for the ride is a bit much.

Also, I wonder if the "Mahler tradition" in certain orchestras is not overstated sometimes.  Just because an orchestra played a lot of Mahler at one should not mean the ability to "know" Mahler has passed down to players a generation later.  A world-class orchestra and world-class conductor should be able to perform Mahler as well as anybody, IMO.

Offline barry guerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3928
I think D.H. is right on the money. To a big degree, I think that Haitink was, quote, "along for the ride", in those early years. I think that his Mahler was best during that period when he hadn't quite formulated his own opinions about it. Seriously - I mean that. Sometime, just listen to what he has to say about Mahler, and you'll understand why the results sound the way they do these days. I don't think that it was a cheap shot at all - I have the same opinion.

Barry
« Last Edit: June 09, 2007, 04:12:09 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline Amphissa

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
Well, I've never been reluctant to express my opinion about Haitink. I consider him the most overrated conductor I've ever heard in concert or on recording. Everything he conducts is dreadfully boring, most of all his abominable Brahms. I've made the mistake of buying a few Haitink CDs over the years, but will never fork over a penny for another.
"Life without music is a mistake." Nietzsche

Offline John Kim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2630
Well, I've never been reluctant to express my opinion about Haitink. I consider him the most overrated conductor I've ever heard in concert or on recording. Everything he conducts is dreadfully boring, most of all his abominable Brahms. I've made the mistake of buying a few Haitink CDs over the years, but will never fork over a penny for another.
Try,

Haitink/RCO/Philips live Mahler concerts, symphony no. 1-5, 7, 9
Haitink/ECYO/Philips M9th
Haitink/RCO/Philips Debussy Nocturne, etc.
Haitink/LSO live M6th

John,

Offline Leo K

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1368
  • You're the best Angie
I couldn't live without Haitink's great performances of Mahler.  At his best his sense of architecture and shape continually bring me great joy and satisfaction.  His intuition regarding the peaks and valleys of a Mahler score are breathtaking and full of insight.  I point to his ECYO/Phillips M9, which is astounding...perhaps the most powerful M9 I've ever heard.  His live LSO M6 is another example of how he ushers forth the right amount of color and dynamic while building a solid and true architecture (with refined nuance) that serves to bring the best out of Mahler's score.  

I really like this Chicago recording.  Aside from the intense climaxes, I think it's the quietest M3 I've heard, which can appear uneventful on the surface.  The deeper layers are there but they resonate over time.  I would give this a higher number than 7 for artistic quality, perhaps an 8 or 9.  

--Leo  

  

Offline John Kim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2630
At his best his sense of architecture and shape continually bring me great joy and satisfaction.  His intuition regarding the peaks and valleys of a Mahler score are breathtaking and full of insight.  I point to his ECYO/Phillips M9, which is astounding...perhaps the most powerful M9 I've ever heard.  His live LSO M6 is another example of how he ushers forth the right amount of color and dynamic while building a solid and true architecture (with refined nuance) that serves to bring the best out of Mahler's score.  
I'd say his live M6th with LSO has exactly these qualities Leo is referring to. He seems to precisely when to hit the peaks and valleys in the music; nothing sounds forced but it never sounds dull either. Every phrase is perfectly gauged this this sense.

John

Offline Amphissa

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 151

Try,

Haitink/RCO/Philips live Mahler concerts, symphony no. 1-5, 7, 9
Haitink/ECYO/Philips M9th
Haitink/RCO/Philips Debussy Nocturne, etc.
Haitink/LSO live M6th

John,

I have his RCO recordings of M1, 2, 4, 5, & 8. I enjoy the playing of the Concertgebouw, but tend to agree with Barry and David that what we are hearing is not because of Haitink, but despite him. I also have his BPO M2 & M4, as well as DVDs of his M2 with BPO and with Rotterdam, and have heard more of his recordings of Mahler that I don't currently own. I also have his Brahms with BSO, LSO and RCO. It is the recordings of Brahms symphonies with RCO that convince me that Haitink doesn't have a clue, but the orchestra deserves any credit due.

If all these CDs were to disappear from my collection .... well, I'd have more space on my shelves  ;)
"Life without music is a mistake." Nietzsche

Offline John Kim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2630
Amphissa,

Did you try the following specific recordings?

Haitink/RCO/Philips live Mahler concerts, symphony no. 1-5, 7, 9
Haitink/ECYO/Philips M9th
Haitink/RCO/Philips Debussy Nocturne, etc.
Haitink/LSO live M6th

I don't think what you said you heard - Haitink/RCO Mahler recordings - are the same as the above RCO or ECYO or LSO Mahler recordings. For one thing, the above Mahler CDs I cited are all LIVE recordings whereas what you heard are STUDIO ones.

John,

Offline barry guerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3928
Let's be sensible about this. Obviously, Haitink knows this music exceedingly well. But there IS something rather dour about his personality that, at times, comes screaming through on his performances - live or in the studio. But that's just a subjective observation on my part. What can be objectively measured, however, is that his tempi have progressively become slower over the years (with excpetions, obviously). There's nothing new about that - the same thing has happened to many, many conductors. But I also agree with D.H.'s observation that Haitink downplays coloristic effects in Mahler's orchestration. To me, he often times goes too far in trying to homoginize Mahler's colorful textures and unique sound-world. When you combine that with his slightly slower tempi - often times with a lack of sufficient contrast within individual movements - you end up with the sort of results that he's been getting in recent times. He's not as slow as a Lorin Maazel; but neither is he kooky enough to be of great interest either (Maazel and Segerstam can be). To me, he's like a slower and slightly more dour Claudio Abbado.

Anyway, I agree with D.H.'s assessment of this particular M3 recording. A 7 isn't a bad score, mind you. If Hurwitz had thought it was truly deserving of a 4 - for example - he certainly wouldn't have hesitated to assign it a 4, that's for sure. I might have been slightly more generous by extending an 8 to it. But I certainly would not give James Mallinson's sonic efforts any higher than an 8. In fact, I might have dinged the sound quality down to a 7.

Now, I haven't heard this live LSO M6 that some of you are very excited about. I have no reasons to believe there isn't something to it. But, he's WRONG to extend the slow movement out to 18 minutes - wrong, wrong, WRONG. It's not an adagio; and Mahler goes out of his way to make that point by calling it a moderate andante. Nowhere in the score of the slow movement does he even mention the word "langsam". In contrast to that, the Adagietto from M5 has "sehr langsam" printed all over it. Yet, people jump up and down when that puppy extends out to 10 minutes or more. Mahler was consistantly clocked somewhere over 14 minutes for the slow movement of M6 (thus, less than 15). It's for that reason that I don't even want to hear this Haitink/LSO M6. When I do want to hear something like that, I'll reach for the Gielen, where the first movement and scherzo are quite slow (yet rhythmic), but the andante and finale are up to speed. I find that to be an effective combination. I'll make an exception for the Eschenbach M6, only because the outrageous playing of Philly has been captured so brilliantly.

For what it's worth,

Barry
« Last Edit: June 10, 2007, 04:20:10 PM by barry guerrero »

Offline Amphissa

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
Re: Haitink/CSO M3 receives 7/8 rating from D.H. - I couldn't agree more.
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2007, 01:59:57 PM »
Amphissa,

Did you try the following specific recordings?

Haitink/RCO/Philips live Mahler concerts, symphony no. 1-5, 7, 9
Haitink/ECYO/Philips M9th
Haitink/RCO/Philips Debussy Nocturne, etc.
Haitink/LSO live M6th

I don't think what you said you heard - Haitink/RCO Mahler recordings - are the same as the above RCO or ECYO or LSO Mahler recordings. For one thing, the above Mahler CDs I cited are all LIVE recordings whereas what you heard are STUDIO ones.

John,

As I said, I have his RCO recordings of M1, 2, 4, 5, & 8.
Sorry - I just don't care for Haitink. I consider him amazingly overrated as a conductor.
"Life without music is a mistake." Nietzsche

Offline John Kim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2630
Re: Haitink/CSO M3 receives 7/8 rating from D.H. - I couldn't agree more.
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2007, 04:28:50 PM »
Amphissa,

Just for clarification, there are TWO different sets of Mahler symphony recordings by Haitink/RCO/Philips. The first is a studio production from (mostly) 70's. The latter is a live production and it is incomplete containing only 1-5,7,9,and song cycles. These are from 80's and can be ordered from Europe. The M3, M5, M7 and to a lesser degree M9 from the second box set are among the very best recordings of these symphonies. The M7, especially is absolutely stunning from start to finish. Also, Haitink's live recording of M9th with ECYO - European Community Youth orchestra, also available on Philips (but OOP now), is a blazing performance and is selected as one of the greates M9ths by many. Sorry, but I wish you had tried these recordings.

John,

Offline barry guerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3928
Re: Haitink/CSO M3 receives 7/8 rating from D.H. - I couldn't agree more.
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2007, 06:11:56 AM »
What you point out may very well be true, John. But that doesn't mean that one should rubber-stamp everything that Haitink does. Nor does it mean that his Mahler is actually showing some improvement with age. In my opinion, far from it.

Offline Damfino

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
Re: Haitink/CSO M3 receives 7/8 rating from D.H. - I couldn't agree more.
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2007, 01:49:40 PM »
Quote
Posted by Garry Guerrero: What you point out may very well be true, John. But that doesn't mean that one should rubber-stamp everything that Haitink does. Nor does it mean that his Mahler is actually showing some improvement with age. In my opinion, far from it.

Actually, Barry, quite the opposite has been rubber-stamped here.  Because Haitink's recent outings have been slow and boring, even his very good recordings with the Concertgebouw are now being tarred with the "boring brush.  This started with DH's apparent assertion that those very good recordings were due to the orchestra, rather than Haitink.  Presumably, the Concertgebouw players ignored Haitink on the podium, and recalled the last time Mengelberg conducted them, and played those versions? 

I am not defending Haitink's more recent outings.  But I quite like his original ones and the live ones John mentioned.  IMO, Haitink, in those original recordings simply attempted to play the symphonies of Mahler as written, and did not attempt to add any conductorial flourishes of his own.  This may seem boring, but Mahler's music has enough theatricality, drama, emotion, pathos, bathos, schmaltz and kitsch that it needs little help from the conductor.  There are few shifts in tempo, or dramatic pauses in the Concertgebouw recordings.  This may seem boring, in that Haitink has not imprinted his own personal stamp on the music, but it does present the music of Mahler, and not of Haitink. 

I remember reading a quote somewhere in which a VPO player remarked "I hate it when we do Beethoven with Bernstein conducting.  He always does Bernstein's Beethoven instead of Beethoven's Beethoven".

IMO, the music is about the music, not the conductor.  If Haitink has "lost it", that means nothing to me.  I simply like to listen to good recordings of Mahler's symphonies.  IMO, Haitink has made several.  Whether he continues to do so or not means nothing to me.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2007, 01:54:49 PM by Damfino »

Offline Amphissa

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
Re: Haitink/CSO M3 receives 7/8 rating from D.H. - I couldn't agree more.
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2007, 10:57:59 PM »
My opinion about Haitink did not begin with the comments of David Hurwitz. If you look back through the posts on this website, you'll find that I have expressed my opinion about Haitink consistently, and if the archives of the old board was still around, there would be even more examples.

However, for clarification -- I did not say his recordings with RCO were boring. I said that I agreed with David Hurwitz and Barry, that the RCO recordings are good DESPITE Haitink, not because of him. I have repeatedly said that his more recent recordings are boring. And in fact, I do think the RCO recordings are much better than his recent recordings.

But this latest M3 with the CSO is just not very good. In fact, it is probably the worst M3 commited to disc for sale in the past decade. Yes I have listened to it myself, and that is my own opinion. (I have never been reluctant to say that I disagree with David Hurwitz or with Barry when I disagree with them. In this matter, I agree with them.)

I have also commented before about Michelle deYoung as a Mahler soloist. (I can't remember if that was here or on the Mahler list or somewhere else.) I saw her in concert singing M2 last year, and my comment was much the same as what David Hurwitz said in his review of her in the CSO M3 performance. Her voice was unsteady and she had a hard time hitting and sustaining notes. I have no idea why she continues to be scheduled for Mahler performances. Surely by now word is out.

While it is true that some of Haitink's early recordings with RCO are quite good, his track record has been very weak since. I have no hesitation recommending those early recordings for people seeking good performances. But the RCO was one of the great orchestras for decades, with unique sound and outstanding character. A lot of great recordings were made with RCO, by other conductors as well as Haitink. I am not convinced that Haitink had anything to do with the greatness of RCO, and given his track record, am of the opinion that he was "riding on the coattails" of their greatness.

So, my advice to anyone would be, yes buy Haitink, but only his earliest recordings. Since then, he is dreadful. Just listen to his Brahms with LSO. The audio is really quite good. The orchestra is very able. But the leaden, uninspired performance led by Haitink is just plain boring. How anyone can make Brahms 1 and Brahms 3 boring is beyond me. I'll give him credit. He's got talent. Unfortunately, it is a talent for ... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

"Life without music is a mistake." Nietzsche

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk