Kondrashin's Mahler?

[Karafan]

Hi all

Having read some good reports of Kondrashin's Mahler part-cycle with the Moscow and Leningrad Philharmonics, I wondered what the board felt about them. 

*Did any of you come to Mahler through a Kondrashin/Melodiya LP?*  If so, I'd like to hear your recollections...

I have him in M7 with the Concertgebouw and it is rather special to my ears.

"Visceral" and "life or death" are adjectives I've seen applied to his interpretations....your thoughts gentlemen, please?

Thank you

Fluffy

[barry guerrero]

One word: fast. They're consistantly very fast. Quite frankly, the playing of the Moscow and Leningrad orchestras - in Mahler - was far better than what was going on in Germany and Austria at that time. Obviously, some of the performances work better than others. I feel that his 6th and 7th are particularly good. I prefer that the 9th be a tad slower, especially in the last movement. But overall, these are really quite good, and should receive more mention.

Barry

[Amphissa]

I've always liked Kondrashin's Mahler. It's more than just faster tempi than we commonly hear these days. They bring a sense of urgency to the music. An interesting aspect of the recordings is that Kondrashin actually recorded two versions of some movements. He recorded the fourth movement of the 3rd symphony (the "Oh Mensch" movement) in both German and Russian. He did the same for the final movement of the 4th Symphony. The Russian version of these recordings are the ones most commonly found for sale. I actually like the Russian quite a lot - perhaps because I do not know Russian, so the voices are rather like musical instruments. But if you are a purist, seek out the recordings with the parts in German.

[Jot N. Tittle]

Sometime earlier here I reported that it was Kondrashin's M3 that got me hooked on Mahler. It was a radio experience, my having tuned in after the performance had begun--being a Mahler novice, I didn't know exactly what I was hearing, except that I had heard enough Mahler previously to suspect that I was hearing him anew. When the performance ended, I felt I had been through a grand musical experience. Then the announcer--Henry Fogel, as it happened--reported what we had heard; he was doing the Kondrashin Mahler recordings, one a week.

It took quite a while to find the set, and it was rather pricey by my standards.

So Kondrashin and then Bernstein comprised my Mahler collection at first. It was interesting to compare them. It seemed to me that the Russian players always gave whatever they played a Russian "accent"--a nnyyya intonation.  Probably my imagination.

     . & '

[Karafan]

Thanks for your replies. 

I live in the UK and the Melodiya set of CDs (sans 2, 8 and DLvdE of course) seems readily available and £70 seems acceptable.

I am however finding it hard to ascertain recording dates or soloists (whether of course the vocal contributions are in German or Russian is yet another question).  Any light-shedding on these points would be most welcome, gentlemen.

Many thanks

Fluffy

[Jot N. Tittle]

The set I got--I think it was on eBay--is a BMG issue of the Melodiya set (marked Melodiya). The booklets are in English and Japanese and they list the dates and places of recordings. Both Russian and German versions of the fourth movement of M3 are included; Valentina Levko does the Russian, Ilga Tiknuse the German; the Russian version was done in Moscow in 1961, the German in Riga in 1975. The Fourth Symphony is also in Russian and German, recorded in 1972 and '73 respectively; Galina Pisarenko is the singer for both.

Hope this helps.

     . & '

[Karafan]

Thanks so much.

Fluffy

[barry guerrero]

Jot,

I used to own the very same BMG/Melodiya Mahler set. However, I needed the cash. Thus, I sold it to a wealthy collector for a good chunk of change. It was a very cool set. It also included a Kondrashin performance of the Bach/Mahler orchestral suite. I don't recall if that particular item was done in Moscow or Leningrad.

Barry

[Jot N. Tittle]

Yes, Barry, you should have got a nice chunk of change. I just looked it up, and it cost me $105 in 2002, my winning bid on eBay.

The Bach Suite, on disc 2, was played by the Leningrad Philharmonic, conducted by Gennady Rozhdestvensky, recorded live in 1976. I suppose they added it to the Kondrashin pieces to fill out the disc. The Bach piece is 21:18; following it is the first movement of M 3, at 32:31.

Kirill did indeed whip the orchestra up to a full gallop, doing M3 in 90:35--eleven minutes faster than old Haitink's CSO performance of recent fame (but his Christmas live broadcast of 1983 was only 94:14). In looking over my holdings of M 3, I find that Neumann runs one second faster than Kondrashin, at 90:34. Then there is Schuricht and the Stuttgart band in 1960, coming in at 86:59. No, wait! There's Mitropoulos pushing the NYPO through at 78:16, a live performance in 1956. Looks like he's the speed champ.

Bernstein and Haitink share the loafer award in holding out for 106 minutes, although the Dutchman lingers 43 seconds longer.

Have I missed anyone at the extremes?

What fun.

     . & '

[Leo K]

Jot, I believe Maazel's VPO M3 is really extreme, perhaps the most extreme?  But I am at work and can't check the timings.

Wow, that Mitropoulos M3 sounds amazing too.  I haven't heard this performance yet, but I heard that Mitropoulos had to make some cuts in the outer movements so he could play the whole work under 90 minutes (the length given for a broadcast in that era I think).  A cut version of the M3 was better than no M3 in 1956, as Mitropoulos wanted to get Mahler's music heard.


--Leo

[Ivor]

Amazing serendipity. I've just bought Kondrashin's M6 ! He's forceful,very sharp and dramatic,snapping in the Scherzo,tremendously clear in the finale (or is that me being clearer?). Only complaints - first movement rather too fast for my Adlerian/Flipsian taste,and he doesn't do the first move.exposition repeat. On the other habd,the speed does make the fatefulness seem more frightening.

I picked up his 3rd many yonks ago,and found it very refreshing and clear-eyed. Sold it,along with much else,later refound my own copy in a charity shop - 'twas meant.

I leapt at the performance after I'd heard his performance of Rachmaninoff's Symphonic Dances described as,in different words,"impossible". Plus I've thought of Kondrashin as one of the more special conductors.

Kondrashin was quite at the forefront of the Mahler renaissance in Russia.

I'm now attempting to put in a link relevant to the 'dates-of-recordings' question. Try] agree to an extent, maybe they shouldn't be put in prison but rather shot?

I jest...lock them [url][/url]No,sorry,can't work it out,so I'll typr it,gustavmahler.net.free.fr/us.html.

I called up the site on another screen,clicked 'add html',clicked on 'paste' somewhere. Rubbish,eh?


 

    Ivor

PS  Hang on,I'll follow Sperlsco's instructions . That's no good - I right-clicked on the address,and the Windows dialogue box didn't have 'properties' ! ! to click on.

[sperlsco]

I'm now attempting to put in a link relevant to the 'dates-of-recordings' question. Try agree to an extent, maybe they shouldn't be put in prison but rather shot?

I jest...lock them [url]]] agree to an extent, maybe they shouldn't be put in prison but rather shot?

I jest...lock them [url][/url]No,sorry,can't work it out,so I'll typr it,gustavmahler.net.free.fr/us.html.

I called up the site on another screen,clicked 'add html',clicked on 'paste' somewhere. Rubbish,eh?


 

    Ivor

PS  Hang on,I'll follow Sperlsco's instructions . That's no good - I right-clicked on the address,and the Windows dialogue box didn't have 'properties' ! ! to click on.

It looks like you are trying to provide a link to Vincent Mouret's Mahler site (a wonderful resource indeed):

http://gustavmahler.net.free.fr/us.html

[Ivor]

Thanks for that,Sperlsco.

I was hinting,crab-like,that you might give the correct step-by-step method,given that I was demonstrating the not-the-way-to-do-it step-by-step method.

I'd be grateful if'you could see it in your heart to oblige.

Thanks

Ivor

[Jot N. Tittle]

Jot, I believe Maazel's VPO M3 is really extreme, perhaps the most extreme?  But I am at work and can't check the timings.

You are correct, Leo. I overlooked Maazel. Maybe a Mahlerian slip? He stretched M 3 out to 110:42. Was it a test of some sort?

As for Mitropoulos, he must have made some cuts. But I notice that no one seems willing to mess around with the timing of the soprano's part.

     . & '

[barry guerrero]

Mitropolous' N.Y. M3 did have some cuts, but not the Cologne one. In my opinion, the Cologne one was better all the way around.

Barry