JPC samples of Feltz/Dortmund M8

[barryguerrero]

It's always dicey to try to gauge from snippets, but Feltz's 'interpretaton' (tempo relationships) seem all over the map to me. HOWEVER, take a listen to the final sample ("alles vergaengliche"). Wisely, they begin that cut right where the unified choral forces sing their very last two syllables in the entire work.

Feltz is the only person, other than Colin Davis, whom I've heard really hang on to the very last syllable ("hiiiiiii-naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan"). That's because he takes the "veni, creator spiritus' theme in the offstage brass at a very broad tempo. HOWEVER, also listen to how he suddenly goes faster when the onstage trombones come in with the inverted counter-theme. This works!! Unfortunately, the excerpt ends just before the first unison gong/cymbals smash. I'm hoping we'll be able to hear the whole symphony on Spotify.

Weirdly enough, the Feltz M8 is being released on the same date as the N.-S./Philly/DG is: January 17. It's also twice as expensive.

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/sinfonie-8/hnum/9582458

[erikwilson7]

I think this Part II sounds fantastic. And yes, tempo is all over the map for Part I, and one of the soprano soloists seems way forward in the mix (I don’t particularly like that).

The ending SEEMS like it’s going to be good. We get a hint of how present the tams are, so I’m going to guess the peroration will be quite audible.

Have you (or anyone else) been following the Feltz/Dortmund cycle so far? I just recently started getting into it and I find the M1–3 to be superb, as well as the M6. The rest are still quite good too, and all are live with applause retained. Clear acoustics, but dry and a bit reverb-y. I think Feltz is good with Mahler’s score details.

[barryguerrero]

I might be wrong, but I think M8 is the first one from Dortmund. Aren't his other ones Stuttgart?

[erikwilson7]

Oh, you’re absolutely right. I just checked. I got it mixed up because the album covers indicate it’s part of the same cycle. Anyway, I do like his Stuttgart recordings.

[erikwilson7]

Feltz has good recordings of the Rachmaninoff symphonies with Dortmund. I was really impressed with the Third.

[erikwilson7]

The Feltz M8 was just added to Spotify. I only just listened to the ending so far but it is maybe the best I’ve ever heard. Better than Stenz. This is the real deal, folks. I can’t wait to hear the whole recording.

[erikwilson7]

I just spot-checked the recording. It sounds pretty much like an ideal Mahler 8. I’ll have to listen to the recording in whole later so I can hear how all the soloists do.

[erikwilson7]

I'm happy to report that this is the finest recording of Mahler's Eighth Symphony that I have personally ever heard (I have also been to a decent live performance). If one can forgive Feltz's slightly interventionist approach to tempi, then this will almost guaranteed be a rewarding listening experience.

Pros: smaller, antiphonally placed SATB choirs (this brings out intriguing textural clarity); amazing presence and clarity of the boys' choir; excellent engineering, acoustics, and orchestral clarity (essentially every orchestral detail of the score is clear as day); good balance of bass in the mix (not too much); good-sounding bells in the first movement (not tubular bells/chimes); the organ is strong and foundational but never overpowering (reminds me a bit of the Nott recording); great ending (the best I've heard: "hiiiii-naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan"); all of the soloists do their parts justice; VERY silent audience! There is one hardly noticeable muffled cough during "Alles Vergängliche" but that's it. The audience even waits until the final chord completely dies away before applauding.

Cons: hmm... none that I can think of yet. Perhaps the vocal forces are a bit limited due to the concert hall, but I find that to be no problem at all. It still sounds enormous at the ends of Parts I and II.

Maybe I am overly-hyped about this recording, but I have to say this is quite an achievement. This is my top M8, hands down.

[barryguerrero]

I like that they were able to hold off the applause for four or five seconds. But then it must also be asked, why include the applause at all? In a way, I almost prefer the spontaneous outburst on the N.-S./Philly one. However, there's another issue that's sort of a deal breaker for me.

While Feltz's ending to Part II is very good (as advertised), I really do not like the soft, spongy, held-on-to final note at the very end of the symphony. It's the Bruckner 8 final note approach. More conductors are doing it, even though it's in direct contrast to Mahler's request for a sharp cut-off (he even marks it as an eighth note). I just think it sounds wrong. The problem is, we either get one extreme or the other.

What I mean by that, is that many conductors who do like the short cut-off, also hold the last note for too short of a duration and do absolutely nothing with it (both Thierry and Adam Fischer are guilty of this extreme). Even though the tam-tam strokes are too distant on the Nezet-Seguin recording, I like how N.-S. keeps the last chord dynamic: he does a crescendo in the organ, followed by a crescendo in the bass drum, followed by a crescendo in the high brass. It lends a layering affect and permits the conductor to hang on to the last chord, without it also sounding static. I actually like the sharp cut-off, followed by the immediate applause. It sounds spontaneous and real to me.

I agree that the detail is very good on the Feltz. But it's also just a tad 'all over the map' for me in terms of tempo choices. Somewhat like MTT, some of his tempo relationships - from one section to the next - are fairly extreme. Also, I'm not crazy about his line up of soloists. I agree that the ending to Part I is excellent, but it's also quite good on the N.-S./Philly one too.  I also like how Philly's horns and trombones are willing to 'take no prisoners' in certain spots too.

I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, Eric, but these issues keep Feltz from being 'top drawer' for me. There is much to like.

[erikwilson7]

That’s a fair assessment, and I agree with most of what you said. I like how you made the analogy to the ending of Bruckner 8, and I can see how that relates here.

As is usual with Mahler’s music: ‘to each their own.’ All it boils down to is whatever the individual seeks from the music. I do think that’s the beauty of Mahler and his scores: everyone sees this music in a different way.

It’s funny, perhaps we have similarly opposing opinions about this Feltz recording and the YNS one. I too feel there is much to like in that one, but some issues keep it from being “top drawer” for me. This extravaganza of M8 releases in the past couple of months has given all of us plenty to reflect on regarding the work and what each of us seeks within it on an individual level.

[barryguerrero]

That's certainly true. One thing that Feltz does do that I really, REALLy like - something that I've mentioned before - is that he hangs on to the last syllable that the unison choirs sing ("nan"). It's a big feature of the Colin Davis Mahler 8 too - my other personal favorite.  I think it's done just a tad better on the Davis, but I also like how Feltz picks the tempo back up when the onstage trombones enter. Perhaps if the Colin Davis recording didn't exist, I might feel more strongly about the Feltz.

Eric, how are you listening to yours? Did you buy a cd or a download? I'm listening on Spotify, which may be inhibiting my response a bit. I do have an sacd player, but I don't want to shell out another $30 for the Feltz discs.

I don't have 5.1 surround sound, so I would have to hear the mixed down two-channel sacd layer.

Two final notes: I'm wondering why the bass-baritone solo sounds so distant (?). Also, while the choral response is excellent at the climax of the double fugue - the reiteration of "Veni, veni Creator Spiritus" (they really belt that out!) - something slightly distracting happens in the timpani. I can't figure out what or why.

I do like the relatively large size of the children's chorus on the Feltz. In relation to everything else, the children's chorus is too small on the N.-S./Philly one.

There are some really good things here, but there some odd things as well. For example:  each of the 'three penitent women (soprano and two mezzos) sing well on their individual solos. But when they join together as a trio, they suddenly don't sound so great. The situation is the exact opposite on the N.-S./Philly (they sing wonderfully as a trio). Also, the tenor sounds like two completely different persons on his two big solos. At the beginning of "blicket auf", he sounds like a baritone on his lower notes (not a bad thing). He sounded so mannered in his first solo. Very odd.

On the other end of the scale, there is a truly great moment. After the first tenor solo, there's the orchestral passage for high strings, harps and harmonium (the strings are a tad too loud). Later on, the chorus joins in softly. That leads to a climax - with bass drum roll - where the soprano (Mater Somebody-or-another) makes her entrance. That transition is done fabulously on the Feltz. That was a really memorable moment on the Haitink/Philips recording.

For me, the climax of the 'blicket auf' passage is rushed (it often times is). Perhaps Feltz did that deliberately, knowing he would make up for it with his ending to the "Chorus Mysticus".

If the tam-tam were just a bit stronger, the ending of M8 is really good on the David Zinman recording (RCA). He really clubs that final note with his bass drum.

[erikwilson7]

I like your detailed analysis. This recording still might remain my favorite despite its flaws, but no recording is perfect. I’ll admit having a hype-bias about this recording so it’s good to be able to read criticism from your point of view.

Surprisingly I was also just listening on Spotify (not great quality). I was listening with Bose QC35 II headphones because I don’t own great speakers. I’m not planning on buying the CD either. I only purchase box sets. I won’t be purchasing a download either because I subscribe to the Idagio streaming service as well and that offers lossless FLAC streaming as well as downloads like Spotify (you can download to “listen offline”). The Feltz M8 is not up on Idagio yet, so I’m eagerly awaiting the ability to hear this in lossless FLAC.

Speaking of box sets, I’m probably going to shell out for a Feltz set if it exists when he finishes his cycle (I read that he plans to release a Ninth). I don’t know if you’ve heard the others in his set but they are all surprisingly good. He has a lot of tricks up his sleeve regarding tempi but I guess that’s just his thing.

[barryguerrero]

"Speaking of box sets, I’m probably going to shell out for a Feltz set if it exists when he finishes his cycle"    .     .     .

You read my mind   .    .   .  or I read yours. I've listened to his M6 and M7, and liked them both. I'm scared to try his M3 (I'm extremely fussy about M3).

Frankly, I'm enthusiastic about the Vanska/Minnesota cycle. But like all cycles, it has its ups and downs too. I think the M4 is outstanding. M1 is too over-thought, or too controlled, or too something. M2, on the other hand, may be the best one in my collection. I've posted about his M6 before: the two inner movements are outstanding, but the two outer movements are disappointing (but with excellently recorded cowbells).  I'm very much looking forward to Vanska's M7. I can type the review already.

Vanska's M7 may lack intensity or cohesion in the first movement, but the inner movements will be excellent. The cowbells (Nachtmusik I) and mandolin (Nachtmusik II) will be superbly recorded. The finale will be up-beat with good contrapuntal clarity. The final peroration might not be overwhelming, but it'll keep an up-beat feel. There, I've written my review already. Hope I'm right (or wrong in the right direction).

Vanska's M3 will be very pivotal for me.  I guess Vanska/Minnesota is my 'guilty pleasure', because so many folks have dumped on his Mahler. They can't all be wrong.

[erikwilson7]

I’m also picky about my M3, particularly the first movement. I have only listened to the first movement of the Feltz M3 but I found it to be excellent, particularly the “central storm” section with very prominent timpani! He does one weird little thing with the tempo during the beginning of the development section but otherwise I was really impressed. I’m looking forward to hearing the rest. It really carries that rustic character that Á. Fischer masters as well. There may also be a mistake or two but nothing major. It adds to the primitive character.

I also like his M7, especially the movements’ tempi. The finale is particularly fast (like Stenz) with a good last peroration with audible bells and cowbells.

I am also enthusiastic about the Vänskä cycle so far, and I like what you said about it being a “guilty pleasure,” because I’ve been feeling the same way. Whether or not I fully agree with movements like his M1/III or his M5/IV, the playing and engineering is just unbelievable. Vänskä is like my triple chocolate cake Mahler; I can’t have it at every meal, but it is just sooo delicious. I have to admit to having the same opinions as you do, but I like that M6 even more. The only issue for me is the rushed coda of the first movement. And I revisited the M1 recently. I just wish the third movement was done faster and with more parody. Like Á. Fischer and Stenz. Those guys nail it. I think what you said about what a Vänskä M7 will sound like might be spot on. Though I’m apprehensive about the finale. I just have this feeling they’re going to keep it straight-faced and deliberate, like Chailly (Decca). Their playful M4 gives me hope, though. I can’t wait to hear the amazing detail in their M3/I

[barryguerrero]

I'll tell you the Mahler 8 that might put them all to rest, if it were issued on a good sounding cd or dvd:  the Welser-Most/Vienna Phil. M8 from Vienna's Konzerthaus that you can still see at Takt 1. The cast was great, the orchestra was in top form, W.-M. made no mistakes, etc.