Author Topic: Hurwitz trashes Norrington / Stuttgart M2: 2/8  (Read 12252 times)

Offline je-b

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Hurwitz trashes Norrington / Stuttgart M2: 2/8
« on: June 25, 2007, 09:34:02 AM »
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11071

Here he goes:

Artistic quality: 2
Sound quality: 8

Reference recordings: Fischer (Channel Classics); Bernstein (Sony or DG); Gielen (Haenssler)

In this performance Norrington achieves his lifelong ambition of making a modern symphony orchestra engineered according to the latest SACD technology (albeit a bit cavernously) sound like a badly recorded pre-War mono 78rpm disc. The tinny brass sonority, thin and scrappy strings, and flat dynamics all point to Norrington's timbral ideal. Say what you will about the result, it's certainly an achievement in a negative sort of way. I pity everyone involved in this misguided abortion of a performance, but then they're getting paid anyway, and a lot more than me, so I suppose they can laugh all the way to the bank.

In his booklet notes, Norrington claims with pride that, "Our recordings so far have been received with a fascinating mixture of complete delight and stern incomprehension." I guess I fall into the latter category, but as usual with Norrington, he misapprehends the reality of the situation. I understand perfectly well what he thinks he's doing. I just happen to know he's operating with a warped view of history, a lack of podium talent, and a malfunctioning sense of hearing. That's certainly a form of "comprehension," just not the kind that Norrington is looking for. I am also well aware that in saying this I am giving him far more attention and validation then he deserves. Furthermore, "stern" hardly describes my reaction to an interpretation that's so difficult to take seriously that it provokes dismayed laughter.

Take the vibrato issue. In his set of notes, Norrington writes that the "pure tone" was "normal with all orchestras until the 1920s. We don't believe Mahler ever heard a classical orchestra...playing with permanent vibrato." Hmmm. It seems the old boy is choosing his words more carefully then previously. It used to be no vibrato prior to World War II, or no vibrato in German orchestras prior to the 1930s, or just plain no vibrato at all. Now it's no "permanent" vibrato, whatever that means, leaving open the possibility of "temporary" vibrato, presumably when Mahler's scores specifically ask for it, as they not infrequently do. But then, consistency was never Norrington's strong suit, either in word or in deed. In any case, here's a bit of information on this subject, well-known to all serious Mahlerites, that ought to be better known to the listening public, and particularly to the long-suffering members of the Stuttgart Radio Symphony Orchestra.

In a famous series of recorded interviews with musicians who actually played under Mahler (included in the New York Philharmonic "Mahler Broacasts" set, and previously issued by Sony in Bernstein's first cycle), Herbert Borodkin, violist with the New York Philharmonic from 1904-9, recalls that Mahler "used a lot more vibrato than most conductors do today (1964!). He insisted on it. He asked for it. When you played a melodic tune, you would have to use a lot of vibrato and sing, as he called it." Violinist Herman Martonne (in New York from 1905-09) notes the same basic facts concerning Mahler's requirement that the strings adopt a distinctive, "singing" tone, and further comments on this style as being idiomatically Viennese. Martonne was a student at the Vienna Conservatory at the turn of the century and witnessed performances by Mahler both at the Court Opera and with the Vienna Philharmonic. Could the truth in this regard be made any clearer, short of Mahler himself rising from the grave and shouting, "Put the vibrato back, stupid!"?

With this in mind, check out Norrington's treatment of the first movement's second subject, or the theoretically sweet episode just before the ghostly coda. Singing? I think not. Then there's the ghastly (in this performance) Andante moderato, which Mahler further marks "very leisurely, not rushed," which of course is a cue for Norrington to offer a clipped (he shortchanges rhythmic values everywhere), brusque, hurried run-through. I could go on: the completely non-ferocious "dead march" in the finale, the gutless ending with its minimal organ, clanking bells, recessed tam-tams, no sense of exaltation whatsoever, and the merely adequate soloists. But really, what's the point?

I still hope, if only for the sake of the talented Stuttgart players, that someday they will summon up sufficient nerve to tell the management that either this tiresome quack has to go or they will. It may be bad PR, and spell the end of what little notoriety they now enjoy in the classical music world, but like kicking a bad habit it can only serve them well in the long run. Don't they realize how foolish Norrington is making them look?

--David Hurwitz

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I must say that I can wholeheartedly agree with him on this one. Norrington's Mahler is weird and mannered to a degree where it becomes completely annoying. Just check out the incredibly dreadful Stuttgart M5: He rushes through the opening movement at breakneck speed, there's no sense of gravitas anywhere, and by way of this silly permanent non-vibrato it's all just chord after chord up to the point where the musical line and structure get completely lost. It's so dreadful, it's almost funny.  :o
"Ich leb' allein in meinem Himmel,
 In meinem Lieben, in meinem Lied!"

michaelw

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Re: Hurwitz trashes Norrington / Stuttgart M2: 2/8
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2007, 11:32:21 AM »
I totally agree too! Maybe I had given a 3 or 4, since I have rarely seen less at classicstoday. Warned by the M5, I only downloaded this recording at emusic and the cost of one euro was more than enough. However, the performance made me so angry (and partly laughing) that I wrote a review. Maybe I will post some excerpts, but DH is right: why pick some parts out of the whole?
It's Mahler's music stripped down to nothing. Norrington is really not interested in Mahler (only in his own approach) and not capable of conducting this work.

A few months ago there was an article in FonoFoum, where the author checked Norrington's proposition regarding the vibrato. Result: there are many very early recordings with vibrato. The author finally called RN's words as "fairy tale hour" (Märchenstunde)!

Michael

Offline Damfino

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Re: Hurwitz trashes Norrington / Stuttgart M2: 2/8
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2007, 01:39:54 PM »
Good to see a "historically informed performance" dude get a smack-down.  I have never cared for the "historical" approach in music.  Even if Norrington were correct about Mahler's use of vibrato (and he apparently was not), I fail to see why the historical types feel the need to recapture the past when things sound better today.  I always avoid any historical/original instrument recording if there is a "modern" version available.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Hurwitz trashes Norrington / Stuttgart M2: 2/8
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2007, 02:42:15 PM »
The second is clearly worst of the lot so far. But I must say, I actually liked much his M5; just for the sheer energy and excitement he brought to it, if nothing else. He actually executed the finale far better than many other equally big named conductors (M5, not M2). I also like his M4; very much so! In the fourth, he at least countered the bad habit of taking the scherzo slower and slower. He believes that Mahler's 3/8 meter indication for the scherzo to M4 means one beat to the bar, and not three. I think he's right. I also liked the inner movements of his M1 - which were extemely well done - but less so the finale.

For me, the vibrato issue just isn't that big a deal, one way or the other. I agree that Norrigton should stop using it as his interpretive calling card. When I like Norrington, it's more because of tempo and tempo relationship issues. I also like some of the balances (not all) and timbres that he gets, outside of his no vibrato policy for the strings. The weird thing is, he lets his winds use plenty of vibrato. Clearly, Norrigton isn't going to be good at the the really huge Mahler symphonies, such as M2 and M8. But I'm actually curious to hear what he would do with M6. The two inner movements would go far faster than usual, which is a good thing. But he would probably fall down in the big, half-hour long finale. Still, I'd like to see him take a swing at it. Why not?

Barry
« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 06:55:11 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline Leo K

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Re: Hurwitz trashes Norrington / Stuttgart M2: 2/8
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2007, 02:43:10 PM »
Well, I've really enjoyed Norrington's Mahler and can't wait to hear his M2.  I heard a live broadcast of his M2 and it was stunning...it was interesting and very exciting, and not like I've heard anywhere.  Norrington's performances have always been a enjoyable to me since his Beethoven cycle, so I always listen with interest.  Really, for me the non-vibrato is a non issue.    

So I'll withold judgement until I hear it.


--Leo

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Hurwitz trashes Norrington / Stuttgart M2: 2/8
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2007, 06:53:15 AM »
Norrigton's Beethoven cycle on Haenssler - with his Stuttgart orchestra - is actually very good. I think it's much better than the earlier cycle he recorded for EMI. I'm going to take a moment to get up on my soapbox.

Dave Hurwitz is one of my best friends. He likes and supports the Gielen Mahler cycle more than I do. That being the case, I'm sure he views these Norrigton Mahler performances as something of an affront to Gielen's more central interpretations (hate that word), especially since they're both on the same label: Haenssler. But I feel almost the opposite. Gielen comes across to me as extremely competent, but slightly insincere; especially since his recordings of M5 and M9 were treated - and sound almost like - afterthoughts. To me, his best recorded performance is the one that comes closest to the second Viennese school sound-world of Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern:  M6. That's where he really gets to display his love of good-old frightening German expressionism.  Norrington may be something of a wack job, but at least he's a somewhat interesting wack job - so far. I do agree that the finale to Norrigton's "Resurrection" is basically a failure. But as I mentioned, there's much in his M1, M4, and M5 recordings that I find likeable. At least he isn't gratuitously slow either:  slow for no real reason.

Barry

« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 07:15:19 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline Jot N. Tittle

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Re: Hurwitz trashes Norrington / Stuttgart M2: 2/8
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2007, 10:48:06 PM »
Where is this available? It doesn't show up on Amazon.com (yet).

     . & '

Offline Leo K

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Re: Hurwitz trashes Norrington / Stuttgart M2: 2/8
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2007, 11:20:38 PM »
I think it's out in Europe and Asia at the moment. 

Offline sperlsco

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Re: Hurwitz trashes Norrington / Stuttgart M2: 2/8
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2007, 03:14:42 PM »
I do agree that the finale to Norrigton's "Resurrection" is basically a failure. Barry


Even though I have the radio rip of this one, I've only heard it as background music through my PC speakers.  Since, I hate basing my opinions on dynamically compressed radio rips, I probably would have purchased it (since I rather like his M4 and M5).  However, your above comment is enough to make me avoid this one at all costs. 
Scott

Offline Leo K

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Re: Hurwitz trashes Norrington / Stuttgart M2: 2/8
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2007, 03:46:34 PM »
I feel that Norrington's reputation will sadly never be repaired (he should never make historical claims for his ideas), but his M2 is actually better sounding than the Zinman and is very close to the quality of the Fischer (at least on the SACD layer).  I therefore agree with Hurwitz's 8 for sound quality, perhaps it even deserves a 9.  Anyways, I would give this a number 8 for artistic quality...

I was hoping Norrington would go farther than Fischer and Zinman in "objectivity" and "starkness"...and Norrington really does this to a great degree.  It is a very interesting sounding M2 and I will definitely play it often.  It complements the Fischer and Zinman, forming a kind of M2 Trilogy...each focusing on objective interpetations from different angles.  For all it's objectivity, the Norrington M2 paradoxically has more personality, which places it high on my list for that kind of balance.  The big climaxes are always louder on the Norrington compared to the Fischer and Zinman.  Norrington's ear for texture is quite impressive.  Norrington is also just a bit more 'heavy' or 'masculine' in sound...more rough and dirty than the others I've mentioned.

The Norrington M2 finale is actually quite intense, the bells are not as loud as the Fischer or Zinman, but the tams tams are just as loud as Zinman's and nearly as loud as Fischer's, just a tad lower sounding, which is not a big difference.  The brass in the final measures are awesome.  I didn't hear as much organ, but that is not a dealbreaker for me...it's in the texture though, just not as obvious. 

Obviously Norrington is not everyone's cup of tea...but I already have reference M2's and I find his recording quite refreshing and welcome to my collection.  Those happy with the Fischer or Zinman probably can live without it, but for those who like something different in the M2 I happly recommend this.

Anyway's...I like this new Norrington and the Fischer and Zinman. 


« Last Edit: June 29, 2007, 07:38:29 PM by Leo K »

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Hurwitz trashes Norrington / Stuttgart M2: 2/8
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2007, 07:06:50 AM »
I have to say that I didn't hate the Norrington M2. I don't think that it's as strong an achievement as his earlier efforts were. I did find Norrington's first movement rather interesting. Clearly, Norrigton does take the second movement too fast in relation to Mahler's written warning not to do so (go fast, that is). But truth be told, I like it faster. The second movement to M2 is probably one of Mahler's weakest, just from a purely intellectual standpoint. The material just isn't interesting enough to take at a slow tempo. But I do agree with David in regards to the finale: I too found the big march section to have been something of a big flop. I also think that the ending does, in fact, need more from the organ and bells. You shouldn't just hear brass, and nothing else. But I also agree with your point, Leo, that Norrington makes for a nice contrast to both the Fischer and Zinman; both of whom are truly more conventional, I suppose. But conventional, from Mahler, is not a bad thing!

Offline Leo K

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Re: Hurwitz trashes Norrington / Stuttgart M2: 2/8
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2007, 08:43:09 AM »
Barry, I rather liked the faster 2nd movement as well.  Also, I appreciate your objective and fair assentment of Norrington's Mahler...that is refreshing as well  8)

Yes, I agree conventional isn't bad for Mahler, after all he took great care to mark exactly what he wanted in his scores.

I'll use this Norrington M2 in conjunction with my other favorites Fischer and Zinman...these 3 M2's are my current favs.  I have to say Zinman's finale is my favorite overall.


--Leo

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Hurwitz trashes Norrington / Stuttgart M2: 2/8
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2007, 02:55:21 PM »
Yeah, Zinman's ending just has really nice sounding bells, which is a refreshing change. In most cases, they're either using low pitched bells that aren't struck hard enough to get beyond a sort of polite but unenthusiastic "bong" sound. Or, they just use the ubiquitous rolling rack of tubular chimes, which just sound like doorbells. I hate the holy doorbells sound. I also prefer that they ad lib. the bell part, as Zinman does (and many others), as long as the bells actually sound good.

 

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