Saccani & Budapest Philharmonic's M3

[Jot N. Tittle]

This live 2000 recording of M3 by the Budapest Philharmonic Orchestra, led by Rico Saccani, just came to hand. Now that I have heard it (once) I am wondering why it is not better known. It is a lively treatment, recorded in the Hungarian State Opera House, Budapest, which provides a great acoustic sense of presence. The mezzo, Bernadett Wiedemann, has a rich voice; the bim-bam chimes are quite pronounced; and the chorus is clear and precise. In my one hearing it strikes me as an impressive performance.

Anyone else react similarly?

     . & '

[barry guerrero]

Never heard of it. What label is it on?

Barry

[chris]

It's on "BPO Live" - the house label of the Budapest Philharmonic.   Berkshire Record Outlet has it as a double disc, paired with M1 for $4.....I actually just received this CD yesterday but haven't had a chance to try it out yet, I'll post my two cents when I do.

[barry guerrero]

Wow! - very fast timings. It's quicker overall than the Salonen is.

Symphony No 3: Kraftig, Entschieden 31:46                 
 
2 Mahler
Symphony No 3: Tempo de menuetto. Sehr massig. 9:12                 
 
3 Mahler
Symphony No 3: Comodo, Scherzando. Ohne Hast. 16:35                 
 
4 Mahler
Symphony No 3: Sehr langsam. Misterioso. 8:50                 
 
5 Mahler
Symphony No 3: Lustig im Tempo und keck im Ausdruck. 4:05                 
 
6 Mahler
Symphony No 3: Langsam. Ruhevoll. Empfunden. 21:46

[Jot N. Tittle]

It's on "BPO Live" - the house label of the Budapest Philharmonic.  Berkshire Record Outlet has it as a double disc, paired with M1 for $4.....I actually just received this CD yesterday but haven't had a chance to try it out yet, I'll post my two cents when I do.

Yep. Berkshire Record Outlet is where I spotted it, and mine had just arrived too. Incidentally, BPO has its own web site, and the same recording is available there for $18.98 +postage. Go figure. But I note that the picture of Saccani is slightly different from the one we have.

You are correct, Barry. They really romp through it. As I said, it's a lively performance. I forgot to mention that the posthorn passage has a real "out there" sound without being faint. I hope you can get a copy, Barry, and give us your reaction.

I haven't paid close attention yet to their M1 on the second disc. But the M3 has legs that move.

     . & '

[James Meckley]

I think this is a remarkably good performance. Thank you, Mr. Tittle, for the heads-up. This is a case, I think, where the timings are not terribly helpful in assessing the performance. As Mr. Guerrero notes, this seems a very "fast" version based on movement timings (and the Finale is really only 21:00 when you allow for the 40 seconds of enthusiastic applause at the end - normally way too short for my taste), but because of the tempo choices Saccani makes within the movements, it doesn't feel as fast to me as some others with longer movement durations (Compare this 21 minute Finale with Solti's 21 minute Finale for an extreme example). Indeed, especially in the last movement, Saccini slows down in all the right places, producing the grandest climax I've ever heard in this movement, including Bernstein/New York (1961 and 1987) and Martinon/Chicago (1967).

There are some odd recording balances, I assume because the engineer was struggling with huge forces in a live setting (I've engineered a live recording of M3 and, though not as tricky as M2, it was no picnic). For example, at the spot in the first movement where the basses diminuendo in one of their marching episodes and the snare drum enters over top of them at a different tempo, you can hear this engineer desperately seeking a good balance between the two voices, with the drum way too loud at first, experimenting, then settling in. Also, the fifth movement seems to have been recorded at a higher level than the others, which I corrected by dropping it 6 dB in a CD-R burn.

I don't know how I'll feel next month, but right now this recording moves to very near the top of my list, along with Martinon and both Bernsteins. Oddly, the M1 discmate struck me as a non-starter, a real taffy-pull, with rhetorically meaningless tempo distortions and dynamic fluctuations, and less vividly recorded to boot. But the whole package cost only $4.00, so who can complain?

This is my first post after lurking for a long time in the old group.

James Meckley

[barry guerrero]

Wow, well that sounds like it ought to be pretty darn good. I like what describe about the sixth movement of Saccani's M3, James. I would probably really like it. And don't get me wrong; I actually greatly prefer swifter tempi in the third symphony. I don't think that anybody should try to turn it into a Parsifal like expericence, except - as you say - at the moments that really matter.

And Brunumb; I know you were asking James about the Martinon M3, but I would like to chime in on this one. It's a Mahler 3 that I like very much as well. However, the recorded sound, as well as the acoustics that it was captured in (Orchestra Hall), are nowhere as good as they are in the famous Levine M3; recorded in the more flattering acoustics of Medinah Temple. But like the Saccani one, the timings are very much on the fast side. I don't remember who the mezzo was, but she wasn't terribly great. But this Martinon one captures the old guard of the CSO brass section when they were still in their prime. The climax of the big brass chorale towards the end of the sixth movement is just amazing. The brass playing in the first movement is pretty darn brash as well. I have to say, I greatly prefer the Martinon to the recent Haitink/CSO one. However, I do like the Levine one for its better sound quality, as well as the more gracious acoustics of Medinah - as mentioned. So, considering the sound issue as well, I guess I'd rate the various Chicago M3s this way:  Levine; Martinon; Haitink; Solti (among the worst ever!).

Barry

[Matthew]

I see that this recording is available at emusic.com along with quite a few other Saccani/BPO recordings:

http://www.emusic.com/album/Budapest-Philharmonic-Orchestra-Mahler-Symphonies-1-3-MP3-Download/11055492.html

[sperlsco]

I see that this recording is available at emusic.com along with quite a few other Saccani/BPO recordings:

http://www.emusic.com/album/Budapest-Philharmonic-Orchestra-Mahler-Symphonies-1-3-MP3-Download/11055492.html

Funny, but I just found this recording at emusic.com -- but I found it from a completely different direction.  There is a thread on Good-Music Guide that lists emusic as a good place for high bit rate MP3 downloads.  I saw this recording listed in my Mahler search, almost dimissed it (i.e. who cares about the Budapest PO  ), and remembered that I just saw this thread on the Mahler Board.  So now that my interest is peaked, I'll have to download it. 

BTW the description of the finale reminds me of how I react to the Neumann M3 on Supraphone.  It is 20' flat, but does not sound too fast to me.  Neumann manages to smell the roses at all the right points.  Contrast this to the Solti/CSO (as you state above) or even Neumann's Canyon remake -- both sound hurried at similar overall timings. 

[James Meckley]

This is for Brunumb, who asked for my thoughts about the Martinon M3. I have little experience writing about the ineffable, but here goes.

For me, right now, this is the best and most satisfying of the shorter/quicker versions. I was going to include timings but I'll add those tomorrow, having left my notes elsewhere. Martinon's is a relatively straight-forward presentation, but with enough flexibility and thoughtful rhetorical touches to put it well within the "warm" category interpretively. One of its greatest assets is the almost unbelievable power and unity of the CSO brass section from that era. Unlike Solti, Martinon tended to hold them in check (as much as one could) until the appropriate moments, making them seem all the more majestic, their power reinforcing the line of the music and carrying it to a level simply unachievable in lesser orchestras. (One of my firm biases in this piece is that the big brass climax near the end of the Finale must be managed properly in terms of pacing, and must be overwhelming - goose-bump-inducing - in intensity. It is, after all, where the whole symphony is aiming. Without a satisfying climax, the whole 90 minutes has been a waste. It's a deal-breaker for me. One of the reasons I'm still enjoying the Saccani.)

Additional performance thoughts: Mr. Friedman's trombone solo in the first movement strikes me as a bit less good than his other efforts in this work. The best-played trobone solo of which I'm aware comes from Carsten Svanberg in the Segerstam DNRSO recording on Chandos (which otherwise strikes me as a rather aimless wandering through the piece - though beautifully recorded).

The less said about the vocal soloist, the better.

WRT recording quality, Barry is right, it is quite dry, though that's what Orchestra Hall sounded like in 1967, after the ill-considered modifications a year or so earlier. For me it's not a problem, but then for me, performance quality always trumps recording quality, usually by quite a margin (which may seem an odd thing for a recordist to say). I can get chills listening to a great performance over a table radio.

As to ranking, all I can say is that, right now, this recording is one of my very favorite realizations of the piece, along with both Bernsteins (and the memory of three devastating live performances). I would hate to be without it.

James Meckley

[Leo K]

Thanks James, thats a great overview...I shall have to revist this recording soon.

By the way, my favorite trombone playing is on the Kobayahsi M3 with the CPO...oh my it is very powerful.  The trombone solo can be a deal breaker for me.

--Leo

[James Meckley]

For those keeping score, here are the timings for the Martinon M3:

Movement 1 = 32:00
Movement 2 = 10:05
Movement 3 = 16:29
Movement 4 = 08:40
Movement 5 = 04:05
Movement 6 = 22:50

James Meckley

[brunumb]

Just a few years late, but thank you for your comments on the Martinon M3 James.