Abbado/CSO M6 (DG) - a revisit

[barry guerrero]

Well, just by chance, a used copy of Abbado's earlier Chicago recording of Mahler 6 came into the store where I work in Mtn. View (Rasputins). It's on the DG Galleria series, which aren't nearly as well remastered as those on the "Originals" series. Still, I've got to say, I like this one much more than the recent Haitink. The differences in timings are only about a minute or so in the first three movements. The finale, on the other hand, is at least 3 minutes shorter in length. Although this isn't my ideal M6 either, it just strikes me as a being a lot more "with it" than the Haitink one. Sorry, but that's how I feel.

Barry

[John Kim]

Barry,

I have always liked this M6th, especially the first three movts. The finale is a bit underplayed mainly due to the weak percussion but still a very fine effort in the early digital era (I think it is a digital recording although the cover says it's ADD).

I must differ with you on the Galleria recordings. I think this DG series had very strong sonic quality in general often surpassing the Originals series. For instance I like the Galleria Giulini/CSO M9th version more than the Originals Giulini/CSO M9th. The Galleria renditions had stronger bass and more robust sonic pictures overall.

John,

[barry guerrero]

I find the Galleria issues rather harsh sounding in the upper spectrum. And I simply can't agree with you regarding Giulini's Chicago 9th: I feel that the Originals pressing is vastly superior, with much of the odd, tremelo-like distortion in the violins greatly corrected. Perhaps you're thinking of the French DG pressing that's currently available (the Galleria one isn't). Regardless, to each their own.

Barry

[Polarius T]

I find the Galleria issues rather harsh sounding in the upper spectrum. And I simply can't agree with you regarding Giulini's Chicago 9th: I feel that the Originals pressing is vastly superior, with much of the odd, tremelo-like distortion in the violins greatly corrected. Perhaps you're thinking of the French DG pressing that's currently available (the Galleria one isn't). Regardless, to each their own.

Barry

Well, just by chance, a used copy of Abbado's earlier Chicago recording of Mahler 6 came into the store where I work in Mtn. View (Rasputins). It's on the DG Galleria series, which aren't nearly as well remastered as those on the "Originals" series. Still, I've got to say, I like this one much more than the recent Haitink. The differences in timings are only about a minute or so in the first three movements. The finale, on the other hand, is at least 3 minutes shorter in length. Although this isn't my ideal M6 either, it just strikes me as a being a lot more "with it" than the Haitink one. Sorry, but that's how I feel.

Barry

I've already brought up my early love for this recording which only the later remake with BPO has replaced as a well-nigh perfect reference statement on my shelf. But this is really excellent as well. However I agree with you on the sound: it's a bit stringent on the top, lacking in luster in the strings, and spatially a bit boxy rest of the way, in the way they now seem to be from that era in comparison with the better recordings of today (which can be quite awesome as in that later Abbado/BPO M6). The Originals, remastered with the DG's "original-image bit processing" technology, were to my ears always an audible improvement over the first-generation transfers: they really seem to deliver that "added presence and brilliance, greater spatial definition" they promised. Note that it's an evolving technology that's in fact more about the process of transferring than of any stand-alone eqpt metrics; for instance these days they are all 24-bit (unlike in the beginning). But yes, some people feel that they, just like the DG 4D recordings from the early to mid '90s, sound "softer" and "less focused" than those strident first-round attempts at transferring analog to digital. That's probably true, in this regard, but the new results are probably also the more realistic ones and it remains a matter of taste whether we want it to be, say, "sharply etched" PCM digital or "softer and more resonant" SACD, for instance.

Anyway, it's a great recording and I'd love to hear Barry's five (or ten or twelve) reasons why something else is definitely better. I just survived this whole piece performed under Bernsten (the new Sony JPN reissues, a conscious effort on my side to try and like this wonderful music lover and pedagogue as a conductor as well) which sounded great as a showcase for what a good mastering engineer can do but terrible as a Mahler symphoney (pun intended). I almost had to turn it off, for all that mess made of inaccuracies and imprecisions and totally wilful solutions all the way through. It was like the conductor had left the score at home and, due to insufficient preparation, couldn't remember very well how the thing goes, ending up having to reassemble the entire piece in his own mind from what the vicissitudes of his memory allowed him, depending on mere subjective impressions and ultimately re-creating it in his own image. (OK, almost like that.) No competition from this one, I'd say. Some effects were very nice, though.

PT

[barry guerrero]

"Anyway, it's a great recording and I'd love to hear Barry's five (or ten or twelve) reasons why something else is definitely better."

It's just that in the mean time, there have been a tremendous number of Mahler symphony recordings released since the latter 70's (or early 80's); and a number of them have superior sound. As good as Abbado's CSO M6 is, I also find it a tad "stiff", for a lack of a better description. For me, the "Alma" theme - the second subject of the first movement - could be a tad sexier; the trio sections of the second movement could have more restless movement - quicker, spin-a-dime changes in rubati (tempo shifts, in other words); the slow movement a tad swifter, overall. All the loud parts are pretty good.

That said, I could live with a tad less brass and more utility percussion at the crests of climactic passages. Philly is better at doing just that. For some reason, the CSO always sound a tad earthbound at the first "Alpine" passage in the slow movement, located about six minutes in. That particular passage is excellent on the Maazel/VPO M6 (and pretty good on the Boulez one too), and serves as my model for that particular spot. Strangely, I found the CSO's "Alpine Symphony" (Strauss) more than a tad earthbound at all the summit passages as well (Barenboim on Erato). Maybe they need to grow a few mountains near Lake Michigan.

As strong and powerful as the CSO play in the two outer movements, I would have liked for Abbado to dig harder with the relentless march rhythms - played by the low strings - at the recapitulation in the first movement (a couple of minutes after the quiet cowbell episode). Gergiev does that fabulously on his new one; and, as I recall, Eschenbach/Philly dig pretty hard there too.

One thing that Abbado does that I really like (and Chailly does it too), is that he takes the final A-minor outburst at the very, very end of the symphony, quite slowly. I really like that!

Trust me, I could easily with this one recorded performance. I'm just bringing up lots of little nit-picky things, because you asked me to. I would, however, like to have it in a DG Originals remastering, as opposed to Galleria. Interpretively speaking, I think I would ideally like Abbado's Chicago M6 for the two outer movements, while using his Berlin remake for the two inner movements. That might really work for me.

I also have Abbado's LFO M6 on DVD, which might be his best overall one.

[Polarius T]

But thanks for the nit-picking, then; I enjoy all those details as it's always interesting to hear how other people are listening to the same music and as they prompt me to start listening to something else, specifically, in the familiar piece. So this is kind of taking advantage of you, if you don't mind.

Also, owing to my past housing conditions in NYC (oh the memory won't fade away!), I in fact no longer own the Abbado/CSO 6th, but will have to settle with trying to remember it next to other versions I still have left. I haven't heard the Maazel recording because, after hearing him conduct it at Carnegie Hall some 10+ years ago, I've meticulously boycotted any and all Mahler he's done. I hated his 6th so much; it was so crooked somehow, especially the 1st movement.

And interestingly re: Abbado, one of the areas where I find him so sovereign and superior to all others is his use of rubato. I find that always SO well judged, well-nigh perfect -- I cannot imagine it being done in any other way (which I usually can). And the march sections I've always found so satisfying in his takes of the work. In fact they were one of the reasons why immediately afterwards I thought that Karajan was so horrible in comparison: with the latter it was like listening to some vicious military music with an aggressive army on the march, slashing and pummeling its way through inexorably and mechanically (in total disregard to Mahler's nature, notwithstanding all the martial influences left in his music always as a memory only, of something distant and personal).

So you gave me much food for thought and a nice evening of fresh listening.

TIA,

PT

[barry guerrero]

"In fact they were one of the reasons why immediately afterwards I thought that Karajan was so horrible in comparison: with the latter it was like listening to some vicious military music with an aggressive army on the march, slashing and pummeling its way through inexorably and mechanically (in total disregard to Mahler's nature, notwithstanding all the martial influences left in his music always as a memory  only, of something distant and personal)."

Interesting thought, but I see it a bit differently. I don't like Karajan's march, simply because it's a tad too fast. However, I'm being a bit hypocritical, because I like the march passages on the Gergiev, which are also quite fast. The difference is in the tempo relationships. My problem with Karajan in M6 is that he's a bit too simplistic with it: fast passages go quite fast, and slower passages go quite slow. Instead of being multi-dimensional (or more unified), he's sort of just two-dimensional with the sixth Mahler: fast and slow, and not much in between. The trio passages in the second movement, for example, are just waaaaay too slow albeit beautifully played. And he's another one who tries to turn the andante moderato movement into a true adagio (which it ain't). I've said this before: Karajan's M6 is one that's tall on lots of small details, but is also one that simply misses the forest for the trees.

As for the "slash and pummel" business, I think it's entirely appropriate at the recapitulation - Mahler is being incredibly angry and aggressive there (a couple of minutes after the cowbell episode, after a big cymbal crash). I think that the march should be quite relentless there, whether personal or not. I do prefer the more stately, slightly more subdued march at the very beginning of the symphony. So yes, I very much like how Abbado starts out the symphony.

Give me a tad more contrast at the "Alma theme" (a bit more tempo and slightly bigger swells  - just a tad); more cowbells during the quiet interlude (I like to hear them without turning up the stereo); more "slash and pummel" at the recap. (really, just dig in more with the basses and celli there); a bit more tempo at the coda of the first movement - do all that, I would truly like Abbado's first movement that much more. As it is, it ain't bad.


For me, Abbado gets one of THE most important details right - well, to my liking, actually (the score isn't clear about a specific tempo) - and that's doing the very end of the symphony really slow!! He's excellent there.

[John Kim]

I have LPs of the Abbado/CSO/DG M6th and recall it sounding pretty much the same as the Galleria CDs, albeit that there was tad more towards the high end of the frequency spectrum. I can't verify it because I don't have a turn table anymore

John,

[Leo K]

As far as andante/scherzo versions go, the Abbado/Lucerne M6 is a top tier M6, and one of the best in sound:



Good low brass, percussion and great hammer blows...pretty much what I listen for in the M6 


--Todd