Author Topic: My ultimate reaction to Zinman's M2nd and M3rd  (Read 17264 times)

Offline John Kim

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My ultimate reaction to Zinman's M2nd and M3rd
« on: May 10, 2008, 06:23:07 AM »
After my initially lukewarm reaction, this M3rd has quickly become my favorite recording upon repeated hearing. Like Leo said I can't quite nail down on what exactly makes this like no other and nearly a great one, but I can't deny I am slowly being sucked into it. Maybe it's the glorious sound of the orchestra which sounds a lot like RCO. Or it may be Zinman's dead seriousness in his approach to the music. Or perhaps it's RCA's great recording sound. I will surely find out why I am obsessed with it so much.

Zinman's M2nd is another matter in its sound and conducting style. It is no doubt a very unique Resurrection, a realization that could be called "thinking man's sensible and sensuous meditation on death and resurrection". Absolutely not a single note is excessively presented here, so much so that the whole performance feels eerie, even ghostly. Yet such is Zinman's earnestness and musicality that it never sinks, culminating in the restrained but breathtaking finale. On my first hearing I thought the first movt. was a disaster but now feel that it is utterly convincing, in a way only Zinman could have brought out. I have never heard nothing quite like this treatment, and am ready to call it a revelation. Barry compared it to Bruno Walter's warm CBS recording and I think that is a fitting description. I would also give it a nickname, "Mahler Second for Easy Listening". Even the sound is comforting and somewhat claustrophobic (appropriately) rather than full of extreme dynamics as in the Third. Granted, Zinman's M2 is not an earth shattering experience. But it really has made to think that after all Mahler Resurrection symphony is very enjoyable music, something I can adore and come back to again and again.

John,
« Last Edit: May 10, 2008, 06:34:40 AM by John Kim »

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: My ultimate reaction to Zinman's M2nd and M3rd
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2008, 08:35:09 AM »
Jeez, what a turnaround! I like these a lot too, obviously. But I'm also glad that there are lots of other good choices out there. I feel pretty strongly about the I. Fischer M2 and Chailly M3 (sacd/cd hybrid pressing) recordings - among many, MANY other choices.

Barry

Offline John Kim

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Re: My ultimate reaction to Zinman's M2nd and M3rd
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2008, 03:30:03 AM »
Actually, I like the sonics in the M2 recording better than the sound quality of the M3. It has more depth, warmth, and a real sense of three dimensional sound stage without sacrificing dynamic range we normally expect of any digital recording. Soundwise, some critics favored this to Fischer's recording. Whether on the CD layer or in the SACD format, it may very well be the greatest sounding Resurrection Symphony on records.

Musically and in engineering this is quite an achievement.

John,

john haueisen

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Re: My ultimate reaction to Zinman's M2nd and M3rd
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2008, 04:29:13 PM »
After my initially lukewarm reaction, this M3rd has quickly become my favorite recording upon repeated hearing.

John,

Could it also be the intrinsic merit of M3?   After all, Mahler said he had put the whole universe into it--you can't ask for much more than the whole world.

Offline Damfino

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Re: My ultimate reaction to Zinman's M2nd and M3rd
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2008, 03:32:48 AM »
Posted by John Kim:
Quote
Whether on the CD layer or in the SACD format, it may very well be the greatest sounding Resurrection Symphony on records.

John, can you please elaborate on the merits of the SACD layer of Zinman's M2? On THIS THREAD several people said the SACD layer was not as good as the CD layer. Did you find this to be so?

I really like the SACD of Eschenbach's M6 and would like to get a well recorded and performed M2, but have held off because of the doubts sown by that thread. I'd hate to get it for the SACD sonics and get stuck with a standard issue CD.

Offline John Kim

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Re: My ultimate reaction to Zinman's M2nd and M3rd
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2008, 03:46:21 AM »
I have not yet explored the SACD layer of the Zinman recording. The problem is that I do have a SACD player but it's currently hooked up to HDTV and I am too lazy to play my SACDs on that system. But I will try some day.

John,

Polarius T

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Re: My ultimate reaction to Zinman's M2nd and M3rd
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2008, 08:23:15 AM »
I...would like to get a well recorded and performed M2.

Two great candidates:

* The mysteriously ignored Saito Kinen Orchestra recording with Ozawa, for Sony, on SACD (e.g., http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/272871); if you want to hear that "terror" stressed by Boulez in his analysis of M2, of all the versions I've heard this comes out best realizing it. It is moreover both played and recorded extraordinarily well. The sound image is very realistic, big and powerful, and clear despite being not as closely miked as some others (hence perhaps that "realism"). It suits well the performance which is focused on the cumulative thrust and agonistic outlines of the work, the constituents of its evolving drama. I don't always admire Ozawa's results, some of which have been outright disasters, even, but here he really is splendid, almost transcendental with a one-of-a-kind feel to the goings-on. This for me represents the very best offered by Ozawa on disc.

* Boulez' own take of it, for DG, that just came out. If anything, it sounds even better if different with all the close-up spot miking going on, but if you simply want to hear everything with all the timbres, tones, and spatial relations most naturally reproduced and differentiated, I doubt you will find anything better anywhere, SACD or not (this is a showcase for how a good PCM recording can sound like these days). This is very impressive indeed, assured and perfectly judged as an interpretation as well, even if temperamentally a bit "cooler" than Ozawa. And played: just listen to those amazing VPO strings at their very best... If, in both the engineering perspective and the interpretative approach, the Ozawa is a spectacular synthesis, Boulez comes across as a masterly exercise in analysis.

Both have also top singers enlisted: The inimitable Natalie Stutzman and the to-me unknown Emiko Suga for Ozawa, and the extraordinary Christine Schaefer and the very fine Michelle DeYoung for Boulez.

PT
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 01:15:07 PM by Polarius T »

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: My ultimate reaction to Zinman's M2nd and M3rd
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2008, 02:38:17 PM »
I much prefer the DVD of Boulez's "live" M2 from Berlin (Staatskapelle Berlin), over the DG studio recording. How can you have a recording of the "Resurrection" with next to zero amount of organ on the disc? At the spot where the chorus sings (shouts) "aufverstehen" in unison, Mahler writes fortissimo for the organ, with the added words "volles werke" (all stops out). I've tried the DG recording on every stereo that I own (including Bose noise cancellation headphones, and the Yamaha subwoofer attached to my main stereo), and I still hear next to zero organ. This issue is far better addressed on the DVD.

Also, when the chorus sings "geschlagen" in unison (happens twice), there are simultaneous cymbal and bass drum strokes, also marked fortissimo. Nothing even remotely close to fortissimo comes from the percussion at those two spots. The effect should be that you're lifted straight out of your chair. This ain't Brahms!

On top of all that, I don't find Boulez/VPO terribly effective with the first movement's climax (I do like his quicker tempi), and the scherzo has absolutely no sense of irony or humor to it at all. It's so fast - with none of the hairpin dynamics observed in the clarinet's part - that it just seems that everybody is simply skating upon the surface. Listen to how Klemperer does this movement - particularly his "live" Bavarian RSO recording (also EMI) - or Ivan Fischer for that matter, and you'll see precisely what's missing in Boulez's scherzo. Yes, the vocals are excellent, and there's always fine string playing from the VPO to be expected. But if I were to specify the VPO for M2, I would go with the older Mehta/VPO  one - recorded in the Sofiensaal in the early '70s - or Kaplan's remake that was also made in the Musikverein, but with a dubbed in organ!

The mezzo is terrible on Kaplan's remake, but he had sense enough to insist that DG dub in a real organ at the end. The wheezy little organ in the Musikverein simply can't crank it out (same is true on Abbado's VPO remake from the Musikverein). I also find the the first movement climax to be more effective on the Kaplan, and his scherzo is more to my liking as well. I do like Boulez's quicker tempo for the second movement (but the same is true on his "live" DVD). 

I do agree that the Ozawa/Saito Kinen M2 is really fine. It's much better than his early Boston recording. This one is a "keeper" for me. But for Boulez, I far prefer the DVD - it addresses everything that's missing in the studio recording.

Barry

Polarius T

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Re: My ultimate reaction to Zinman's M2nd and M3rd
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2008, 10:51:30 PM »
I don't recall there being "next to zero" sound pressure from the organ, but I'll check, compare, and get back at this ASAP. But if it wasn't that striking to me -- I can't even recall how it goes -- it must have worked some way or another. At any rate things like this would hardly make or break the recording's value for me; it's always an issue broader and at the same time more precise than that, too, I guess; at any rate something whose significance emerges in the context of the rest of that performance. I'd probably take something like this as nothing more than one of the cool hi-fi features of the particular recording, not as a criterion of a fundamental flaw discrediting the entire performance. Things work differently for different folks though, and YMMV. It may be just a conscious choice as well (doubtful it's an engineering flaw or sloppy production in DG's case) among all the other interpretative choices. Boulez is never after an effect and he tends to rein in things on purpose, always in the interest of other considerations internal to the work and its presentation. But as said, I'll have to check again. My speakers go down to 25 Hz basically flat and the cans I use are almost better.

Wow, you really make me realize it's time to get a DVD player again.

PT
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 10:54:59 PM by Polarius T »

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: My ultimate reaction to Zinman's M2nd and M3rd
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2008, 07:24:17 AM »
Hey, I'm not trying to put you on the spot here (maybe a little), and I'm not saying that Boulez's studio recording is awful. I'm just saying that the live performance that's captured on DVD addresses some of the issues that I have with the DG recording. I also think that the Kaplan one is better than many people believe.

The studio recording of M2 also strikes me as being somewhat oddly proportioned: the first three movements are quite fast, while the last two movements are markedly slower. The live performance seems better unified over the five movements. I wish that a dvd of the "live" M8 with Boulez would get issued as well.

Polarius T

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Re: My ultimate reaction to Zinman's M2nd and M3rd
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2008, 10:30:43 PM »
Hey, I'm not trying to put you on the spot here (maybe a little), and I'm not saying that Boulez's studio recording is awful.

No prob at all and I do think it's sort of interesting as a perspective to consider the significance of the organ SPL at that very spot as key, so let me revisit this as soon as time allows! It's always refreshing to check one's listening patterns and habits.

PT

Polarius T

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Re: My ultimate reaction to Zinman's M2nd and M3rd
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2008, 10:45:25 AM »
OK, I finally got around to giving a quick comparative listen to the organ blast & the "joint strike" you found missing in Boulez' M2 finale. Our house is a mess (a protracted renovation going on) so what I got my hands on were, besides the Boulez, Walter/NYPO, Klemp/PO, Abbado/CSO, Abbado/LFO, Ozawa/SKO, and... was that it? Maybe. Due to exigencies of the material and social surroundings  :( I had to do all the listening between midnight and 3 am and on headphones (Ultrasone Pro 2500; speakers are packed away from dust right now, but these cans claim to go below the human hearing threshold), in other words not so alertly any longer and not in a setup I'd normally use.

Honestly, you are right in that the organ sounds comparatively undistinct in the Boulez, even a bit artificial in some funny way. But that, I think, might have been the conductor's (or producer's/tonmeister's?) conscious decision, so as to blend it in better with the full sound of the orchestra. To my ears it succeeds very well in this, sounding balanced in its contribution to the sound cluster. And performance markings are of course always relative: ff is "more" than f but "less" than fff and so on. So I remain unconvinced of the vital importance of this point, even when seeing that someone else could get a fit about it, especially if they've heard the Walter/NYPO recording that seems to exaggerate the low end (as with many other recordings from this company dating from the the period, there is also much other, extramusical rumble coming through in the taping when played back through better-performing modern equipment) to an admittely striking effect here, even if in the end it made me think that it was perhaps precisely this very effect that left me feeling unsatisfied about its relation to other sound elements in the massive conclusion. The other recordings more or less all showed an organ SPL that didn't call attention to itself much more than Boulez, and certainly less than Walter.

As for the cymbal/bass drum strokes at "geschlagen," I didn't feel like there was any such jolt effect in any of the recordings I had on hand that you seem to be missing in Boulez, either. Almost on the contrary, I felt that Boulez' hairpin precision that's there even in the percussion parts when he is conducting rendered this "joint strike" that much better timed and thus more effective, to my ears at least, than in the comparison material. There seem to be sharply drawn leading edges and fascinating internal differentiation even to tones produced by others as merely big bangs or collective dull thumps when he's in charge of the proceedings.

Well, I don't want to exaggerate the singularity of Boulez virtues on this point (though in general I'll eagerly sing his praises to no end), since obviously there are several other great Mahler recordings that we seem to enjoy amongst ourselves. But Boulez just works for me here, in M2 distinctly better than in some other M's he's done which can sound considerably less convincing to my ears. He doesn't seem to lose sight of the proportions at any point along the way and so the work emerges in a beautifully balanced layout undistorted by the turmoil at its termination point -- always so troublesome to accomplish with artworks emerging in time.

The scherzo I had to skip for now due to lack of sleep but will get back to it at some point. But that's maybe a bit less interesting to me, given that perception that's not about volume or SPL as above, but about attribution of property that's much more narrative in nature and of almost stylistic quality such as irony or playfulness is significantly more subjective and thus harder to pin down in public conversation. Meaning that it'd be harder to agree what's played "ironically" or "playfully" enough than what's just loud enough.

Well, you always force me pay more attention to what I'd otherwise pass by as more or less a matter of course... Nice!

PT
« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 12:55:45 PM by Polarius T »

Offline Leo K

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Re: My ultimate reaction to Zinman's M2nd and M3rd
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2008, 04:16:38 PM »
Very well written PT,

As for the very ending, or climax of the M2, the recordings I have found most satisfying in terms of organ and percussion (bells, tam tam and etc) is the Mehta/IPO/Teldec (on DVD-A format), the Fischer and the Zinman.  These recordings are very clear and the balances are quite good, with the organ, bells and tam tam in all their glory!  Especially the Mehta DVD-A...the organ is like a plane descending over your head...powerful, but the other elements of the orchestra and just as clear in the mix.  Once you hear a recording like this, it's almost hard to go back to recordings that don't feature this power  :)

--Todd

Offline Damfino

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Re: My ultimate reaction to Zinman's M2nd and M3rd
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2008, 08:52:06 PM »
Revisiting this topic. In my quest for a great sounding SACD of the Mahler 2nd, I have listened to several since we last discussed this. I agree with Todd that the Mehta IPO Mahler 2 on DVD-Audio has the most impressive organ ever (I know- it's not all about the organ).

I bought the Zinman disc, but on first hearing, I'm not blown away. In all fairness, i did not give it my full attention, but only noted certain favorite moments. A couple of observations: the tympani in the third movement simply sound weird. It's like it has too much reverb. The opening "BAH-Dum" sounds more like "Bah-Oom". The reverb from the first thwack overshadows the second. The tympani have that sound throughout the movement.

In the finale, I can hear the organ, but it was not overwhelming. I guess I like enough organ so that someone who has never heard the piece can say "hey, there's an organ in there!". One thing that was unusual, but rather impressive was that the soprano (and maybe the mezzo) was out front of the chorus on all the singing of the finale from the organ onward. I think in most recordings, the soloists simply blend into the chorus at that point, but Zinman had his soprano front and center sort of leading the chorus. As the high notes are extremely high here, it heightens it to have the sprano give that extra push, but I am not sure it is what Mahler intended. Abravanel's finale is done this way, with Beverly Sills very much out front for the finale.

I also picked up the Gilbert Kaplan VPO performance on SACD. We had a (desperately needed) rainstorm in Houston last night which knocked out my DiSH reception, so my wife and I listened to the entirety of the Kaplan recording. I was pretty impressed. I've always dismissed Kaplan as a non-conductor, and figured his performances would be mere imitations, but I decided to get over it and give it a listen. I thought he handled the work quite admirably. Sonically, the SACD was IMO quite impressive. The basses in the first movement are extraordinarily rich-sounding. In fact, it was a good a first movement as I have ever heard. I found myself wondering if I was noticing new sounds because of the excellent recording or because of the "new definitive edition" that Kaplan used. The second movement was also beautifully done. For some reason, the 3rd movement sort of left me cold. It seemed to miss that biting sardonic, snarling quality it needed. I liked the Urlicht. Even though the soloist did indeed have a lot of vibrato, I thought the tone of her voice was nice and enjoyed it anyway.

The finale was well done. The SACD utilised the rear channel speakers for the offstage band for the"Grosse Appel". Most SACDs seldom make use of the rear surrounds, other than for a sort of echo (Donald Runnicles' excellent SACD of Carmina Burana also throws a few sounds into the rear speakers). This use of the surrounds added to the distant quality of the band. The soloists were good for the most part. The soprano was nice on the sections where she "floats" above the chorus, though her half of the "O glaube" verse was just a tad forced. The organ was fairly impressive. On its entrance, at "Auferste'n, ja auferste'n", it's a great  low "whoom" sound. But what was interesting, is that as the finale progresses, you can hear the high end of the organ coming out of the surrounds. I know Kaplan dubbed the organ later, but it was pretty well done.

I also have the HD DVD of the Boulez live Mahler 2nd. The video is like you are there, as it is in high-def. Performance-wise, I enjoyed it immensely.  Boulez looked as if he might faint before it was over, but he hung in there, conducting with no baton. His tempos were the way I like them, and he slowed down for the finale, rather the way Bernstein or Haitink do.The Berlin Staatskapelle is fast becoming one of the world's great orchestras. Both soloists were excellent. Diana Damrau was close to ideal in the soprano part (I know much is made of the alto in this piece, but a heavy or forced soprano is more of a deal-breaker for me than the organ). The audio is extraordinary throughout, with a great dynamic range. However, I have to say, the organ was a let-down. If this is an improvement over Boulez' studio recording, then it must have had a wimpy organ indeed. During the Grosse Appel passages, the camera leaves the orchestra and  uses the organ pipes for the visual. I was thinking, after hearing the great dynamic range up to that point, that the organ was going to be tremendous. Unfortunately, it was just OK. Again, I could discern it, and it was not a deal breaker, but I just would have preferred more in a high definition multi-channel recording.

Offline Amphissa

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Re: My ultimate reaction to Zinman's M2nd and M3rd
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2008, 11:06:32 PM »

You know, in this discussion of organ in M2, I've always wondered what Mahler really intended it to sound like. Yes, he says all stops out. But, and this is just a question in my mind, were organs that would have been played in typical concert halls at that time loud enough and powerful enough to blow away the entire friggin orchestra the way it sometimes gets recorded today. In other words, was he really saying that because at that time, the only way the organ would have any noticeable presence in that huge blast of chorus and orchestra, would be pedal to the metal? Might he really have been aiming at a more complete, balanced overall effect? Not a passage in which the organ reigns supreme, blowing the rest of the orchestra and chorus off the stage, but rather an integral part contributing to the overall wall of sound? Because, of course, back then, there were no "sound engineers" driving audio systems to boost or highlight any particular instrument. And if you've got a chorus of several hundred voices bellowing full volume and a very large orchestra blasting full steam, might an organ of that day, in a typical performance venue, play all stops out and still not be heard over all the rest, but just adding depth to the bottom end?

Maybe some of you know better than I about this issue. And hey, this has nothing to do with "how I like to hear it!" We like to hear organ flattening us against our chairs and bursting our eardrums. Okay? I'm just curious about what he was trying to achieve when he wrote it, back when it would be performed by his contemporary conductors, in the concert hall in Lyon or Naples or Rochester NY.

What say you experts?
"Life without music is a mistake." Nietzsche

 

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