Author Topic: Mann and Mahler  (Read 16354 times)

Wunderhorn

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Mann and Mahler
« on: January 30, 2007, 04:37:37 AM »


Thomas Mann was a friend of Mahler, as well as an admirer of his 'Symphony of a Thousand'. Mann along with his brother, the historian, managed to be two of the most rational Germans through the antisemitist stronghold. I've only read Mann's 'Death in Venice', but just bought a hardback of 'The Magic Mountain'. Mann can be challenging, but he is no Musil by any stretch of the imagination.

Offline Leo K

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Re: Mann and Mahler
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2007, 04:40:00 PM »
I've carried an old copy of The Magic Mountain around for years now...it looks like a great read, but I just haven't got around to it yet! 

I didn't know that Mann knew Mahler...very interesting.

Manish

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Re: Mann and Mahler
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2007, 07:18:07 PM »
wow, I am so glad I finally found this site again.  thank god the Mahler board is back up running again.

I have read the Magic Mountan...its long, it moves slow, but it is a great read.  I loved it.  Mann basically recreated a microcosm of Europe before WWI set in a Swiss asylum...it goes on to show humanity's spiritual decay.  I guess it can related to Mahler's music if you consider his symphonies to depict the state of Europe in the beginning of the 20th century before the war. 

But Mann did write alot about music....the Magic Mountain has a great philisophical discussion about Verdi's Aida.  Its near the end of the book, but its great.  He also wrote a great story called Tristan.  Also set in an asylum, it tells a story about a guy who plays the Tristan prelude on the piano with this girl.  Listening to the prelude opens up a wealth of emotion for him, which he had been suppressing for a long time.  Mann's Doktor Faustus is supposed to be based on Schoneberg. 

But all in all, the MM is a great book.  Its pretty challenging, but I liked it.  let me know what you think of it when you're finished.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Mann and Mahler
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2007, 07:51:59 AM »
.    .    .  Herbie Mann? I just picked up a great Herbie Mann CD, with him playing bass clarinet exclusively. Jack Sheldon does a superb job on the trumpet. Jimmy Rowles is the piano player, who mentored Diana Krall. Mel Lewis is on drums (of Thad Jones/Mel Lewis fame). It was recorded in 1957, and is out on the OJC/Riverside label. This is really outstanding music making.   8)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 08:05:27 AM by barry guerrero »

DennisW

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Re: Mann and Mahler
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2007, 04:35:42 AM »
I'm not sure I would really describe Mann and Mahler as "friends", since that word implies a closeness that simply wasn't there as far as I can tell from the biographies of each that I have read - more like casual acquaintances. Certainly they admired each other and met a couple of times, and Mann attended the premiere of Mahler's 8th in Munich in September 1910. But other than that, I don't know how much of Mahler's work Mann actually heard in Mahler's lifetime, or how much of Mann's work up to that point Mahler had read. What may have eventually blossomed into a genuine friendship was cut short, of course, by Mahler's early death so soon after the two had initially become acquainted. It's also worth noting that in the English edition of Mann's selected letters from 1895-1955, Mahler is mentioned only once - and that briefly in a 1921 letter on Mahler's having inspired some of his portrait of the paradigmatic "artist".

It's also important to remember that by the time of Mahler's death in 1911, Mann had not yet written most of the works upon which his fame and reputation rests. His great early work, Buddenbrooks, had appeared in 1901, and remained his most famous and substantial work until the publication of Death in Venice in 1912, The Magic Mountain in 1924, Joseph and His Brothers from 1933-1943, and Doktor Faustus in 1947, with many shorter and lesser works in between. So, the "Thomas Mann" Mahler knew was not quite the same "Thomas Mann" the world knows now, since his greatest mature works were still well ahead of him.

The Magic Mountain is one of my favorite books of all time. Having read both the Woods and the old Lowe-Porter translations, I much prefer the Woods - too many archaic Britishisms in Lowe-Porter that just don't sound like Mann. It's length may seem daunting, but it actually moves briskly, and once you get into it, you won't want to stop. Quite simply one of the greatest books of the last 100 years, and a brilliant elegy for the "Old Europe" that died in the trenches of World War I. The final paragraphs of the book are utterly sublime, and will have you nearly in tears as the wistful, melancholy strains of Schubert's Der Lindenbaum echo in your head.

Doktor Faustus is also a must for any music lover - but the Schoenberg connection has been greatly exaggerated. Though Mann's protagonist, Leverkuhn, uses a form of the 12-tone system, he should no more be equated with Schoenberg than Eschenbach in Death in Venice should be equated with Mahler. Mann was not writing roman-a-clefs, and inspiration is not the same as identity. Whatever Mann took from Schoenberg and Mahler as influences was transmuted into Mann's own unique artistic creations.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Mann and Mahler
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2007, 08:03:24 AM »
It was my understanding that Mahler and Mann only encountered each other once:  sometime during the rehearsals - or after the performance itself - of M8 in Munich.

Offline ggl

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Re: Mann and Mahler
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2007, 03:23:58 PM »
Sometimes the obvious needs to be said, so I'll take it upon myself to mention the Visconti/Mahler/Mann connection -- Visconti used the M5 adiagetto in his film of Mann's Death in Venice.

I agree that the Magic Mountain is a great book; slow going at first, but well worth the effort.  I read it 25 years ago, but some characters and scenes from the book remain as vivid to me as if I'd read it two weeks ago. 

For those just getting started with Mann, Buddenbrooks, or the short stories, or Felix Krull, Confidence Man, may be easier works to start with.  What I've read of Mann's nonfiction is also very worthwhile.  But the Magic Mountain is the summit, one of the great works of world literature. 

Despite the connections, Mann and Mahler don't seem to have been temperamentally-similar artists.  Mann is a bit reserved, impersonal, and distanced from the panorama of life -- though he sees with clarity, and to great depths.  His works does not contain the exhilarating manic swings characteristic of much of Mahler's music.

Wunderhorn

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Re: Mann and Mahler
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2007, 09:55:21 PM »
I found a picture of Mahler in the 'Mahler Album' where he is walking in Munich with a person thought possibly to be Thomas Mann after the success of 'The Symphony of a Thousand' premiere there. Does anyone have any information about what scholars say about this photo?

michaelw

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Re: Mann and Mahler
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2007, 02:10:28 PM »
I had just taken Doktor Faustus from my library in order to (possibly) read it again after 25 years, when this thread came up.
I checked references to Mann in Fischer's Mahler biography and in addition to the posts above can say, that surely Mann admired Mahler and was influenced in some way. So Fischer argues, that Aschenbach's  appearance has been formed after Mahler and that - even if there is no direct note about it - Mann used the circumstances around M6th in Dr. Faustus. His reason for this proposition: regarding the musical aspects Mann was consulted intensively by Adorno. Then there is another story about Mahler and Hugo Wolf which was told to Mann and finally was used in some way in Dr. Faustus. On the other hand, there is no sign of an active connection from Mahler to Mann. Since Fischer seems to know and to like his Thomas Mann, he had written more, if there was something.
But after all, Mann only did what great authors do masterfully: using experiences, persons and stories of the real-life and incorporate them structurally.
There is one nice anecdote about the meeting of Mann and Mahler after the premiere of the M8th: after the concert Mann could meet Mahler backstage and congratulated him. Then, a few days later, he sent a letter. I cannot translate the letter, it is vintage Thomas Mann, but at the end he said, that as a small acknowledgment, he sends a book (Royal Highness) as a gift.
Fischer assumes, that Mahler probably never has done a look into it, particularly since Mann wrote something like "for some idle hours" ("für einige müßige Stunden") and Mahler hated nothing more than idleness. There was probably no better way to disqualify something for Mahler than to relate to “idle”.

Michael

 

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