Poll

What is your least-favorite Mahler symphony?

M1
6 (18.8%)
M4
3 (9.4%)
M7
1 (3.1%)
M8
16 (50%)
M......?
6 (18.8%)

Total Members Voted: 26

Author Topic: your least-favorite Mahler symphony?  (Read 40899 times)

john haueisen

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Re: your least-favorite Mahler symphony?
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2008, 12:05:02 PM »
Thanks Amphissa.
But I don't mind aberrations either.
After all, wouldn't all the "classical" composers have considered Mahler an aberration?
JH

Offline david johnson

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Re: your least-favorite Mahler symphony?
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2008, 10:16:21 PM »
8

dj

Offline Damfino

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Re: your least-favorite Mahler symphony?
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2008, 03:56:09 PM »
I voted for (or is it against?) the 8th. I rather like the first part, which ends with such a bang, I find myself too restless after that point to hear an even longer concluding part. I guess it seems sort of like listening to Beethoven's 9th in reverse order. I have a few recordings of it, but I always lose interest on the second part. Maybe one day, something will click between me and the music, but so far this has not happened. At one time, I did not care at all for 7 and 6. I quite like both now (prefer 7 to 6) and I expect this will happen with the 8th if I give it time. However, I guess I tend to do as Amphissa says, and "stick with the prime cuts". So, I never seem to give the 8th enough time because I am too busy playing the ones I really, really like.

Likewise, I have never given the 10th much time either, aside from the adagio, which I really like.

Quote
Again, you'll see how subjective this is, and how much many will think I am reading into it, but to me, M6 contains some of Mahler's most poignant struggles:  clinging to his love of life (Alma theme) struggling against mortality, soaring to the heavens, clinging again to pastoral scenes and love and life, finally all of this crushed and annihilated by the inexorable blows of mortality.

Although I have become quite a fan of the 6th, the weakest part to me is the so-called "Alma" theme, which always struck me as a fairly trite melody. Maybe it is a an accurate portrait of Alma?

Offline Jot N. Tittle

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Re: your least-favorite Mahler symphony?
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2008, 04:39:13 PM »
Back to the Eighth: It is the text that gets in the way.

If you can follow the singers with the text in hand, you must have a pretty good command of it. I tried last night and have some learning to do! My theory is that once the listener can "sing along" the music really opens up.

Maybe that's what is needed: join a chorus that is practicing the Eighth. 8)

     . & '

Offline Jot N. Tittle

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Re: your least-favorite Mahler symphony?
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2008, 05:42:21 PM »
Although I have become quite a fan of the 6th, the weakest part to me is the so-called "Alma" theme, which always struck me as a fairly trite melody. Maybe it is a an accurate portrait of Alma?

You may be right, Damfino, on both counts.

But who first said that passage was a portrait of Alma? Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it was--who else?--Alma.

A later passage in the Sixth--I'd have to hear it to identify it--seems more suitable for personification. Maybe someone else has a suggestion.

     . & '

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: your least-favorite Mahler symphony?
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2008, 06:14:15 PM »
Trite or not, the "Alma" theme serves an important function: it is the contrasting second theme to the first movement - the theme that wins out in the end. While the opening of the symphony is a staid march in A minor, the Alma theme is a sweeping, lyrical theme in Major.

Similar to how the the first movement to the 3rd symphony is essentially a struggle between two opposing march forces - one in minor and the other in major - the first movement to M6 is a struggle between opposing Major and minor themes; only this time, the theme in Major is also a stark contrast in terms of phrasing as well (long legato lines, as opposed to a clipped, militaristic march).

My problem with the "Alma theme" is that it's often times just played too slow. Because it's associated with feminine characteristics, everyone assumes that slower is better. I feel just the opposite: that the Alma theme should come bursting right out of the box; thus, making an even stronger contrast to the march. Sometime check out how the second subject gets treated on the Ivan Fischer M6 (which also has a great finale, by the way). It truly makes a strong contrast.

Barry

Offline stillivor

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Re: your least-favorite Mahler symphony?
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2008, 08:55:37 AM »
 I agree that Mahler didn't write a dud.

 The 8th is the one I, too, struggle with. Tho i must say, since I got into playing thru his output chronolically and in cycles, and therefore hear the 8th more often, I'm getting to it more.

 It is in the second part that i struggle more, tho i'm coming along. And the start and finish of each half are wonderful. There are tremendous passages throughout,imo.

 No.6 is my favourite; i think the 'Alma' theme gorgeous (but then I don't have much taste); I have a special place for 7 as the first Mahler I ever heard; and have to gird myself for 10 (next in cycle no.5) because it is so powerful. i think the man got enough down on paper for 10 to hit the target.

Ivor

klingsor

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Re: your least-favorite Mahler symphony?
« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2009, 05:22:26 PM »
Sorry, I know this thread is "dead" since July... ;)

I have to go with M8 as well.

To me the problem is that the symphony sounds less personal, as in Mahler-personal, to me. Only the non-vocal start of Mvt II sounds like Mahler being Mahler to me (and even then, not at his best). I don't love Mvt I, although it's mighty impressive on a contrapuntal level. Mvt II has many moments of beauty, but I don't really get hooked until the last 10 minutes or so ("Blicket auf!"), from there on it's irresistable.

Offline Damfino

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Re: your least-favorite Mahler symphony?
« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2009, 10:19:41 PM »
Klingsor, feel free to resurrect any old thread you like. I forgot I had even posted in this one. Funny how we all prefer things differently. I mentioned feeling that the "Alma theme" seems trite to me, yet many love it (I'm not saying I'd change anything, though in the 6th). And, I quite love the 4th, yet some do not.

john haueisen

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Re: your least-favorite Mahler symphony?
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2009, 03:29:42 PM »
I'll second Damfino's suggestion that it's fine to see old threads resurrected.  Time often gives us a new perspective.
It's interesting that so many of us have a bit of a problem warming up to M8.
Perhaps as Jot N. Tittle said, it requires familiarization to the extent that we can sing along with it.
Amphissa once chose M6 as a "least favorite," I believe because it had too many marches, or perhaps seemed to Amphissa like one long forced march.  I hope Amphissa will someday enjoy M6.  Perhaps a New Year's resolution for more exercise (lots of marching around) would be a good impetus for an appreciation of M6. 
I don't enjoy my own singing voice, so as to M8, singing along is not a probability.

klingsor

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Re: your least-favorite Mahler symphony?
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2009, 04:59:07 PM »
As far as singing along goes, I think all of Mahler is very singable, that's one key to his popularity: the man wrote great tunes. It's also a source of some criticism, that his themes are not 'symphonic' and don't lend themselves to development. I remember reading that several times in the past. I think now most will agree that Mahler develops his themes brilliantly.

In terms of preferences, some say M6 has too many marches. For me, Mahler's marches are among his most appealing creations.
Here's a question: which Mahler symphonies have no marches? I say only M4 and M8. M9 has a march episode in I (a lyrical funeral march about midway in the movement). I suppose DL has no march, apart from moments in IV and possibly during the interlude in VI
 

john haueisen

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Re: your least-favorite Mahler symphony?
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2009, 05:27:38 PM »
Klingsor said: 
Here's a question: which Mahler symphonies have no marches? I say only M4 and M8. M9 has a march episode in I (a lyrical funeral march about midway in the movement). I suppose DL has no march, apart from moments in IV and possibly during the interlude in VI

You're right about DL.  The marches are in movements 4 and 6.
M4 has a march in the first movement.
M8 the same.
M9 has (as you said), a march in the first movement, but also another in the third movement.
The only one lacking a march is M10.
--John H

Offline Amphissa

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Re: your least-favorite Mahler symphony?
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2009, 06:53:16 PM »
The only one lacking a march is M10.
--John H

That's only because he had not gotten around to it yet. He would have put a march in it. He was obsessed with marching. That's my problem with the 6th. I'm not fond of marches. I tolerate the marching in most of his symphonies because the rest of the music is so good. But there is just too much marching in the 6th for me.

"Life without music is a mistake." Nietzsche

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: your least-favorite Mahler symphony?
« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2009, 07:27:31 PM »
I'm convinced that the 6th is Mahler's most German and, simultaneously, most anti-German symphony. Hence, the need for bringing the march to the symphonic forefront. I think it's a mistake to view the 6th as a work that's primarily about Mahler's own personal problems. It's always said that Mahler wasn't interested in politics. I make the opposite argument: there were truly few composers who were more political than Mahler. It's just that Mahler was very guarded and cryptic when it came to discussing his own works, regardless of the fact that he was anxious to get them performed. But Mahler made perhaps THE most political statement of any composer ever: "I am thrice homeless; a Czech among Austrians; an Austrian amongst Germans, and a Jew amongst all peoples of the world; Never wanted, never welcomed". Of course, that's a typical Mahlerian exaggeration. But everything WAS an uphill struggle for Mahler. Nothing was handed to him, for the most part. If you use that statement as a launching platform, it's clear that the sixth symphony was very much a prophetic work, and thus, a warning. As I have pointed out many times, there was nothing unusual or rare about artistic warnings at that particular time in history, as many people viewed the first world war coming from a mile away (I mean that in the figurative sense). Barbara Tuchman discusses this to some length in "The Proud Tower".

If you accept my basic premise about the 6th symphony, then the true purpose of the 8th symphony becomes clear. The sixth pointed a finger at the basic problem of the German speaking world at that time. The 8th then points the way out of the tunnel of darkness. Just as Mahler's personal problems are a parable or allegory for the bigger issues that the sixth symphony is dealing with, so is Goethe's text only a parable or allegory for what Mahler is trying to say to his public with the 8th. Mahler himself left the biggest clue when he called his 8th his "hymn" or gift to the nation (I've read both words used). Being aware of his critics, he also told Alfred Roller, "there's my mass". Therefore, I would argue that Goethe's text is not terribly important at all, until we reach the final "Chorus Mysticus". In fact, the real point is the poetic level of Goethe's German. In that sense, it's like reading Shakespeare (only Shakespeare is even more cryptic, with his many political references). I think it's the musical issues that are more important, or more interesting.

In many ways, the 8th summarizes everything that had happened in western music up to that very moment. At the very least, that's certainly true for the Austro-German line of composers. In a way, the 8th is the Beethoven's 9th of the Belle Epoch, or Art Nouveau ear (sorry, I don't have time to fix spelling mistakes now). At the start of Part II, Mahler is "tone painting" in the classic way that Schubert or others would have. He's setting the scene for Goethe's text. But then the music shifts into Wagner-like episodes, beginning with the first loud outburst, and going all the way until the first entrance of the childrens chorus (right after the bass baritone solo). At the point Mahler switches to Mendelssohn, with strong overtones of his "Midsummer Night's Dream". At the very least, you could certainly argue that the text for the three penitent women is well worth ignoring, unless you take the whole issue of  redemption quite seriously, or literally.

Mahler tried to express all this in a letter to wife his; one in which he became a bit tongue-tied. He tried to make it clear that the focus was on the "Chorus Mysticus", and what it was that Goethe was attempting to express with it. It's little wonder that "cosmic", psychodelic children of the '60s could relate so easily relate to Mahler. Goethe and Mahler are sort of making an acid trip of the soul. As with so many other "heaven storming" moments throughout his entire ouevre (again, please pardon the spelling mistake), Mahler reveals heaven as little more than sheer energy - a much more medieval idea of what heaven is about. It's simply too bright and powerful to observe or comprehend from Earth.

So what am I saying?   .    .     .   forget the text, once you've read the bloody thing. All that truly matters is the tone painting aspects of Part II, and then the final "Chorus Mysticus".
« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 12:17:52 AM by barry guerrero »

klingsor

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Re: your least-favorite Mahler symphony?
« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2009, 09:50:56 PM »

M4 has a march in the first movement.
M8 the same.
M9 has (as you said), a march in the first movement, but also another in the third movement.
 

I don't know where you hear marches in these movements, can you describe more?   ;)

 

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