Author Topic: Gergiev/LSO M3 coming out in early October  (Read 19485 times)

Offline barry guerrero

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Gergiev/LSO M3 coming out in early October
« on: September 10, 2008, 03:52:53 PM »
.     .      .     with Anna Larsson (doesn't make it four M3's for her now!?!). Gergiev's M3 was heavily criticized in London (they like slow and comfortable sounding Haitink). But the brief video excerpt that was once available on the LSO site sounded perfectly normal to me. Dave didn't much care for Gergiev's 7th, but I happen to like it quite a bit - it's definitely a keeper for me. Anyway, we'll see. It's not like there's a shortage of really good M3 recordings, so it will have plenty of stiff competition.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 07:05:27 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline techniquest

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Re: Gergiev/LSO M3 coming out in early October
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2008, 05:59:32 PM »
I will be very interested in your take on the Gergiev M3 when you hear it in it's entirety. I considered it to be possibly the worst interpretation I have ever heard! (And no, despite being UK based, I'm not a Haitink fan either).  ;D

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Gergiev/LSO M3 coming out in early October
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2008, 07:19:51 PM »
Fair enough.

Offline vvrinc

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Re: Gergiev/LSO M3 coming out in early October
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2008, 04:50:55 AM »
I've been following the Gergiev series and have not been put off by anything he's done so far. He has his meshugana moments but, hey, look at the material!

A criticism of his 6th was that the opening march was way too fast. It seems to be a Russian tradition as Kondrashin, Svetlanov (I could remember wrong with him) and Jarvi (have not heard the recent 2 Jansons yet) all interpret it quickly. (Jarvi's is more like a sprint.) Maybe not only a Russian trait as I was just watching the Bernstein/Vienna (the bearded Leonard model) video and was struck by how fast he also takes it. Nothing to do with tempi, but a curiousity nevertheless, is that Dostoevsky was one of Mahler's favorite authors.

Gergiev’s Mahler interpretations have mcuh more subtlety than he is given credit for. His take of the 1st Symphony, in particular, has charm, grace, a touch of the macabre, and exquisite phrasing--the middle section of the last movement, for instance. The Sixth is very dramatic and the slow movement sings with simplicity. Perhaps the last movement takes a while to get going but, when it does (about 6 minutes in) it retains your attention until the end. I have only listened to the Seventh once but liked it a great deal and look forward to the next hearing. What is killing the cycle (and probably is influencing some folk's acceptance of it) is the ridiculously dry acoustic and poorly balanced recordings which spotlight the percussion section to the point of distraction. ("Oh, Brian, ol' chap, but no one in the control room really could hear that the bloody timpani is doing a sonic lap dance when he (she?) makes an entrance?") Also, some carefully applied ("carefully" is the operative word) warmth could have been added via digital reverb that would have helped Gergiev's colorful interpretations and made them more palletable to most listeners. I understand the latter suggestion is voodoo to the classical techno crowd but, please, how could it be worse than the "orchestra-in-a-phone booth" perspective we are being treated to. Forget SACD, the claustrophobic sound resembles something you hear on an MP3. (The Seventh's recording did seem to have a bit more bloom to the sound but I'll confirm this on relistening.) Speaking of SACD sound, the Bernstein/NYPO cycle, as remastered by the Japanese, is really something. Yes, there is still the (then-CBS signature) preference for mosquito-like string sound, but the remasterings have tamed some of the latter and added a lot more air to the recordings. At no time do you feel that a false tonal picture has been created for the sake of effect. (The price of the set IS crazy...so abstaining from sanity medications before the purchase is absolutely necessary.)  ;)

I've not be a fan of tovarisch Gergiev's Shostakovich, Prokofiev or Stravinsky (prudence makes me simply say: "a tad underrehearsed?), but his Mahler, so far,--with the energetic, commited playing of the LSO--provides a distinctive and memorable perspective on the composer. I am thankful that he is not an "underliner" and, if he does throw me a curve, I can't see it coming. Of the new cycles on the market, I find his the most compelling "buy". My initial fears had been that I would grow bored, as I have with MTT, and maybe will--after the miserable 5th--with Zinman.

I sincerely hope that the above report of the 3rd symphony's performance merely describes an off-night by the principals and that the recording will have many points of interest and novelty. I'll either be the richer or the poorer for my expenditure but...we'll see.

Chief Guerrero, thanks for your kind welcome in the other post. Just a hint though: if the sun were to represent the drain on a basin, age-wise, I am circling the opening in a Mercurian orbit, not Neptunian.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Gergiev/LSO M3 coming out in early October
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2008, 08:27:00 AM »
 ;D

Offline Dave H

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Re: Gergiev/LSO M3 coming out in early October
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2008, 01:22:27 PM »
I'm very interested to hear Gergiev's Mahler 3 as well. I agree that his Mahler interpretations have more to them than he is often given credit for, but one reason he gets so little credit is because (as just noted) so many of his other orchestral recordings of music that he really ought to know well (like, for example, Prokofiev and Stravinsky) show evidence of being poorly prepared and are badly played [his egregiously awful Rite of Spring, for example]. I last saw him with the Kirov do an all Prokofiev program (Scythian Suite, Second Piano Concerto, Fifth Symphony) and it was dreadful, particularly the symphony. It really seemed as though he didn't know the piece at all well, or in any case was making interpretive decisions counter to the composer's clear intent. On the other hand, the LSO is a much better orchestra than the Kirov, and some conductors (as mentioned in the thread on Barbirolli) have good ideas but need a top-notch ensemble in order to realize them. I am also very curious to hear Gergiev's take on the Fifth, having enjoyed his Sixth. After the disappointment of Zinman, we could use a good, old fashioned, exciting as hell view of that work, and I wouldn't be surprised if Gergiev delivers the goods. FYI I did an interview with him once and he was completely uninterested in talking about music--he had a sort of pre-programmed "interview speech" about how wonderful he and the Kirov are, and he wouldn't stray in inch off of script. It's odd, sometimes, how hard to is to get musicians to talk about music sometimes!

Dave H


Polarius T

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Re: Gergiev/LSO M3 coming out in early October
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2008, 06:33:01 PM »
He's a bit selective about the people he wants to open up and be frank with. He runs his own music festival in my hometown each summer, and the apres-concert pow-wows he holds with the local and national who's-whos of the musical and cultural establishment plus some of personal friends and hangers-on are quite famous for their philosophizing and brainstorming around all things musical and cultural, often prompted by reflections on a most personal and even private level.

Then again, maybe you didn't take in him the sauna. I'd recommend, for the next time. Gergiev, every time he stays over for another week to ten days, and you know how busy da man is.



He's kind of a rock star, so there are so many people who want him to talk candidly about music with them! The key to success is creating the right atmosphere.



Whaddayasay, give it a go? (Just remember, he's an Ossetian so throw no wrong sort of flames.)

 :)

I conclude this sixth (?) sauna post of mine fittingly with words of wisdom that, inspired by the settings, the Maestro shared with us on one of those intimate occasions, apropos the essence of a conductor's job: "I turn the heat up when it's necessary and may throw more water on the stove, keeping a steady and safe pace. Pow!" You see? No script.

Then again he also said that 2,000 people died in Tskhinvali (most human rights organizations estimate less than one tenth of this, actually): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoZ06uBE4rQ. A bit like letting Classics Today* assess the merits of an Abbado recording, wouldn't you say!

-PT

*By the way, I find the name of the site an interesting oxymoron. They always steer you to the classics of yesterday (or the day before, even), don't you think?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 07:57:08 PM by Polarius T »


Polarius T

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Re: Gergiev/LSO M3 coming out in early October
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2008, 03:35:57 PM »

Timmo wrote:


No; "Polarius T" wrote.


"...A bit like letting Classics Today* assess the merits of an Abbado recording, wouldn't you say!"

Like these, for example, I suppose:

[etc.]


Indeed. The analogy to Gergiev was about perpetuation of myths. And to effectively perpetuate a myth one has to maintain general credibility. That you (I admit, saying "Davey H" instead of "Classics Today" would have probably been more accurate) do by admitting semblance of "former greatness" on occasion -- for instance in some select material peripheral to this conductor's main interests and his chief claims to greatness (where hearing him would have most consequences). If you simply claimed that someone like Abbado just sucks through and through, even fewer people would take you seriously -- most probably no one would. Hence the need for the myth of some former greatness that then suffered a drastic deterioration on a scale unknown to this world until Abbado came along, a development moreover that only you have been able to correctly spot (this earns your site its stripes in the eyes of its followers). You can still give him a little something here, a little something there; as long as it's insignificant and in marginal material that's not going to be threatening to the musical values and tenets you stand for and propagate.

(Where were you and what were you saying, by the way, when Abbado was still in London, that site of former glory?  :D)

Initially I though you maybe have trouble with your hearing or some serious problems with your sound system. (How else could one, for instance, give those old Ancerl Supraphon recordings an unconditional "10" for their sound quality, when the latest really impressive DG release with, incidentally, Abbado conducting only gets a "5" or a "6"? Seriously, the former sounds better? Twice as good, to stick with your fascination with numbers? Come on. It's not even possible to play those Ancerls at anything resembling a realistic sound pressure level, they really hurt your ear that much. Moreover, the entire lower mids and upper mids seem to be missing, so it's hard to even to tell instrumental groups apart from one another. And that's to say nothing yet of the metal tube-like image of the strings, or the diffuse percussion sound with attacks dulled and pitches obscured, or the flat two-dimensionality of the orchestra, or... And yes I have the best remasters of them, ordered all the way from Japan.) Maybe these do play a role, but lately it's started to look like a bit more severe case of that old "Man with a Mission" kind of a thing: Only you've got the guts to stand up against him and try and render him harmless, too.



Sometimes the results are quite interesting, to be sure, as I admitted before: http://gustavmahlerboard.com/forum/index.php?topic=661.msg5700#msg5700. But the problem with all that posturing, however, is that musicians like Abbado are not the real enemy of classical music appreciation; I fear it's more the record reviewers like you that are so. In this day and age, if you didn't notice, it's those windmills of yours that have become relevant, necessary, and vital for the future!

Just watch out you won't get blown away in the process.  :)



By the way, that was a great way to get more hits on your site. Good thinkin'.

-PT
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 10:17:59 PM by Polarius T »

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Gergiev/LSO M3 coming out in early October
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2008, 06:11:43 PM »
I don't know; seems like we could go on with this kind of exchange forever. I listened to the SACD of Abbado's Berlin M5 just yesterday, and was greatly underwhelmed by it.

The finale was pretty strong, but so it is on the excellent Karajan one as well (The BPO is great at contrapuntal "chugging along"). The horn solos in the middle movement scherzo were very underplayed, in my opinion. They're played so much stronger by Gerd Sieffert (or is it Sieffert?) on the old Karajan recording. He retired, and I've been underwhelmed by Berlin's horn section ever since. The second movement was OK, except that the woodwinds badly underplayed their numerous "Beethoven's 5th-like" gestures in the second subject (seven fast notes leading to a longer note). And in the first movement, there was too little tam-tam (and later, other percussion) underneath the funeral procession. I sometimes think that Abbado follows dynamic markings TOO literally. Pianissimo doesn't mean that something should just disappear altogether.

But speaking of dynamics, once again, I have to agree with the observation that David has made numerous times: To me, the Berlin Phil. sounds more like a chamber orchestra on steroids (my observation, actually), than a genuine "philharmonic". Thus, it sounds better and more comfortable when playing soft, than when playing loud. Even Bernstein made this type of observation when he did M9 with them in 1979. They have great low strings, but the low brass just doesn't put enough bottom on the band. In Mahler, the tuba is written almost as an independent super-bass to the entire orchestra (much like Prokofiev's tuba writing). For whatever reasons, the low brass seem stronger in both the DSO Berlin or - even better - the Staatskapelle Berlin (actually, I think that the BPO finally has a new tuba player).

By and large, the woodwinds play very well in the BPO. But they sometimes lack the distinctive coloration that seems so vital to Mahler's oevre. You hear just that far better in the Concertgebouw, Czech Phil., Staatskapelle Dresden, and - even within Berlin - the Staatskapelle Berlin. Again, I just feel that the sound-world of the BPO is better suited for the somewhat slick style of Richard Strauss, than the somewhat more Slavic sounding Mahler. Of course, there have been a few exceptions - mostly under Karajan, in my opinion. All this said    .     .      . 

I do think that the BPO low brass sound a bit stronger on Abbado's M6 remake (different tuba player, I believe). It's a solid performance, but it sounds much better played back in S/A order, in my opinion, because the tempo for the scherzo perfectly matches that of the first movement's ending (and regardless of biographical arguments, one way or the other). Anyway, I like it better in S/A order, and feel just the opposite about Karajan's BPO M6 (I prefer his A/S, in other words). All the tempo relationships make logical sense, and the two hammer strokes are sufficiently strong. Although, I do think it's a bit odd to add tam-tam to the first one (couldn't be a counting mistake, could it?). However, Abbado's fine BPO M6 certainly has plenty of competition.

I like both the playing and sound quality better on Ondine's recording of M6 with Eschenbach/Philly. I do prefer Abbado's more straight-forward conducting of it, especially with his more up-to-tempo Andante movement. But here's a true "philharmonic" (and it's not even called one) with plenty of heft from all corners of the back row; yet, you hear everything (including the bassoons). The woodwinds have the necessary "tang" to consistently cut through. Granted, the truly generous acoustics of Verizon Hall help.

From a different corner of the globe - Russia's window to the west - Thomas Sanderling conducts the work very forthright, just like Abbado, but gets outstanding playing from the St. Petersburg Phil., especially in the final 12 minutes of the finale (just where Rattle/Birmingham completely poop-out). The sound quality is very good here as well (RS). I think that Sanderling's M6 holds up remarkably well.

And again, if it weren't for the ridiculous sounding, metallic "ping" hammer strokes, Dohnanyi's very forthright M6 - just like Abbado's conducting of it - might be very competitive as well.

But coming back to Mahler 5, I feel that the BPO is always good with the more contrapuntal moments of the work, especially those passages dominated by the strings. But I really feel that Karajan's classic recording of it far outdistances both Abbado and Rattle. All five movements are VERY strong on the Karajan, and that's truly saying something. On the Rattle recording, the horn solos in the scherzo are stronger than those on the Abbado, probably because Rattle had his soloist play at the front of the orchestra (and to his left). Seiffert is just freakin' outstanding on the Karajan.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 04:54:06 PM by barry guerrero »

Offline Dave H

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Re: Gergiev/LSO M3 coming out in early October
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2008, 06:35:56 PM »
Karajan M5 recommendation seconded--but then, he famously had a about 50 rehearsals beforehand (the booklet notes to the "originals" reissue give that hilarious story about Carl Orff coming into the control room during their recording of his horrible De Temporum Fine Comoedia---or whatever it's called--and instead seeing Karajan listening to the edit of the Mahler Fifth). Karajan, at least, understood that Mahler's style was sufficiently special (and different) that the orchestra needed extra time to assimilate it. A member of the orchestra told me this quite honestly after a particularly disappointing Mahler 6 under Haitink--he said that they simply didn't have time to rehearse the work as intensively as it needed to be done, and they were not the kind of orchestra that could simply play it "at sight" with the necessary idiomatic feeling.

I think most subsequent conductors have had the same problem to greater or lesser degree, and this is particularly true of "micro-managers" like Rattle and (especially) Abbado, who like to fuss with tiny details, often at the expense of the big picture. One big exception has been Pierre Boulez, whose DG Ravel cycle in Berlin is about as fabulous as it gets, with conductor, orchestra, and repertoire perfectly suited (and here they really do play LOUD)! But as Barry also suggests, much of this has to be seen comparatively, in context. It's not that Berlin or these conductors play Mahler badly, they simply don't do it as well as others have when directly compared, and one's personal feelings will necessarily be conditioned by one's experience of those other performanances. If you haven't heard them, or don't want to, you may be perfectly happy with what you have.

Dave H

Polarius T

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Re: Gergiev/LSO M3 coming out in early October
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2008, 07:55:36 PM »
Just very quickly:

Re: Barry: You say you feel like you are "underwhelmed" and that this might be because "Abbado follows dynamic markings TOO literally." This nicely points to the underlying issue: Earlier you guys said the conductor isn't very important, the work is; but then you look for the excitement from the conductor's intervention (and the orchestra's) in the realization of the score. You want your music to feel thrilling and that is the main quality you judge a performance by. But you don't trust the music enough to leave it alone to do its job; it needs to be in the interpretation, it seems, that thing that gets you to feel like something virile and big is enveloping you and having you along on a thrill ride. This is why people like Abbado don't appeal to you; his way of working with the orchestras does the most to eradicate all audible evidence of conductorial interference, letting the music itself speak freely and openly through the collective effort of multiple musicians acting in consort as peers. He certainly is no Szell nor an Ancerl and even less a Reiner or a Karajan or a Bernstein. For the performance to be successful in this approach, that organ really doesn't have to shatter the windows nor that bass drum stroke fracture the concrete foundation of the building across the street. Insteade, the key criteria become transparency, joy or spontaneity of music-making (not in the sense of not rehearsing like Davey H seems to suggest), and balances. The rest comes, after that much is there.

Where this kind of listening comes from that you and Davey H seem to practice, I'm not sure, but I think part of it has to do with the tradition of weekend entertainment as diversion. You really want to be transported somewhere else from this reality. Yet I think there are other ways of listening that find their interest points slightly elsewhere and don't really strive for that sort of "excitement" from the "event" but something else that, in my view, does greater justice to the composer's work than what's been the case till now, allowing a much more personal and direct relationship with it and letting it speak more freely on a greater variety of topics to you.

Or so I'd say! But this way of listening I think you're talking about might just also be about the fascination all boys (and I don't mean to imply anything about you; I speak from personal experience) share in creating a competion out of everything, putting everyone against everyone else, seeing who's lame and who's not, who's boring, who's the black horse, who's giving whom a run for their money, who's left in the mud and who comes out on the top in the end; and then creating a ranking list out of it all. That's just so much easier to do, too, if you have a concrete check list to follow and simple numericals to assign (for the biggest organ; the loudest thump; the fiercest tutti; the fastest scherzo-- things you could even measure with a machine if need be).  :P

And then

The Rest:

I think most subsequent conductors have had the same problem to greater or lesser degree, and this is particularly true of "micro-managers" like Rattle and (especially) Abbado, who like to fuss with tiny details, often at the expense of the big picture.

Sorry, what are you saying? That these two particular conductors (who just happen to be the last two music directors of the Berlin Philharmonic putting an end to Karajan's legacy  :D) don't adequately prepare for their concerts? Hmmmmmm.... Examples, please.  ::)

And again those cliches you like to circulate, beginning with that "fussing with detail/too many details" thing? I'm afraid it's becoming a bit transparent even if you didn't quite realize it yet.

Lastly, while you are at it, could you please point out a few instances where Abbado (I prefer not to talk about Rattle yet) loses "the big picture"? Thanks. And while you are it #2, also where Abbado so very disingenuously at length deviates from the score, as you claimed before (asking me just take you by your word). I've spent some time looking into this but haven't been able to find a thing, so please help.  :)

That is, if you can, of course; for I have this doubt in my mind that you are just using your usual strategy of making vague unsubstantiated allusions to somehow try and cast doubt on people, as you do again right after this in the last citation below. And preferably these should be cases where it's not about taking your word versus the rest of the world once again.

I don't think anyone needs to be reminded that one of the reasons behind Abbado's reputation is precisely his outstanding ability to clarify the architectural plan of whatever it is that he is conducting.

It's not that Berlin or these conductors play Mahler badly

But thank you! So they do have business conducting Mahler, after all, then, and are allowed to be recorded, too, from time to time? That's seems to be the opinion of the rest of the world, too, if that matters.  :o

when directly compared, and one's personal feelings will necessarily be conditioned by one's experience of those other performanances. If you haven't heard them, or don't want to, you may be perfectly happy with what you have.

Oh, so you want me to tell how many recordings I owe -- again -- is that it? So we can compare? But if that's so, this time you do it first, please, so you won't run away like last time after you asked me to do it it first. We got ourselves a deal?

 :)

-pt
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 10:34:04 PM by Polarius T »

Offline Dave H

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Re: Gergiev/LSO M3 coming out in early October
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2008, 02:07:53 AM »
Timmo:

Thanks, but no thanks.

Dave H

Offline akiralx

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Re: Gergiev/LSO M3 coming out in early October
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2008, 09:29:24 AM »
Karajan M5 recommendation seconded--but then, he famously had a about 50 rehearsals beforehand (the booklet notes to the "originals" reissue give that hilarious story about Carl Orff coming into the control room during their recording of his horrible De Temporum Fine Comoedia---or whatever it's called--and instead seeing Karajan listening to the edit of the Mahler Fifth).
Karajan, at least, understood that Mahler's style was sufficiently special (and different) that the orchestra needed extra time to assimilate it. A member of the orchestra told me this quite honestly after a particularly disappointing Mahler 6 under Haitink--he said that they simply didn't have time to rehearse the work as intensively as it needed to be done, and they were not the kind of orchestra that could simply play it "at sight" with the necessary idiomatic feeling.

I think most subsequent conductors have had the same problem to greater or lesser degree, and this is particularly true of "micro-managers" like Rattle and (especially) Abbado, who like to fuss with tiny details, often at the expense of the big picture. One big exception has been Pierre Boulez, whose DG Ravel cycle in Berlin is about as fabulous as it gets, with conductor, orchestra, and repertoire perfectly suited (and here they really do play LOUD)! But as Barry also suggests, much of this has to be seen comparatively, in context. It's not that Berlin or these conductors play Mahler badly, they simply don't do it as well as others have when directly compared, and one's personal feelings will necessarily be conditioned by one's experience of those other performanances. If you haven't heard them, or don't want to, you may be perfectly happy with what you have.

Dave H

Never heard that anecdote about Orff - great!  I recall that one of the four solo violists in the Orff was Sigiswald Kuijken - I actually had the recording.... :-X

Osborne's Karajan biog implies that the M5 recording came to soon for him and that he played it even better later, I've never heard it so must get it. I like his M6 and live M9, but found the M4 too languid. 

I agree with Dave that many recent BPO recordings, particularly the Abbado M6, just lack the necessary heft for the composer (and the Andante is a good example of Abbado's micromanagement of tempo which wrecks it for me - Karajan is superb there).  Comparing Rattle's anodyne Schubert 9 with Karajan's first (DG) version is quite instructive: Karajan's isn't my ideal for the work but there's more fire and excitement there.  The last two movement are almost too robust, or even loud... 

Agree too that Boulez's BPO Ravel is superb - it's one of my favourite SACDs.

Polarius T

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Re: Gergiev/LSO M3 coming out in early October
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2008, 09:31:44 AM »
Timmo:

Thanks, but no thanks.

Dave H

As expected, Davey; a bunch of hot air and not much else.

You keep insinuating as if there was something to your vague claims, but when asked to substantiate you have nothing to show. So my advise to you would be: Put up, or shut up.

Beware not to underestimate your audiences, though, thinking they won't realize. A lot of people are still listening to their music rather than some tendentious tastemaker aspirant.

-PT
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 09:53:00 AM by Polarius T »

 

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