Author Topic: I'm getting this anyway, but...(Saint-Saens,Sym 3 "Organ",Eschenbach/PhillyO)  (Read 14307 times)

Offline barry guerrero

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.     .     .    but D.H. only rated it a 7/10. I'm going to get for all of the positive reasons that he cites. I can live with Eschenbach's weird tempi and phrasing - I think. Here goes:

 
SAMUEL BARBER
Toccata Festiva

FRANCIS POULENC
Concerto for Organ, Strings, & Timpani

CAMILLE SAINT-SAËNS
Symphony No. 3 "Organ"

Olivier Latry (organ)

The Philadelphia Orchestra

Christoph Eschenbach

Ondine- ODE 1094-5(CD)
Reference Recording - Saint-Saens: Munch (RCA)
 
 
 
This disc has a lot going for it. The new organ in Philadelphia's Orchestra Hall, the inaugural concert of which is enshrined on this disc, is clearly a splendid instrument. I do wish the notes had omitted the business about "the world's largest" in a concert hall. Quality always should come before quantity. Alas, part of classical music machismo involves standing around and comparing the size of one's organ. Never mind: the Fred J. Cooper Memorial you-know-what is clearly impressive, and it's magnificently recorded here. The instrument has power to spare but not a hint of steeliness or harshness in fortissimo, and it harbors a huge range of colors in its zillions of pipes.

Barber wrote his Toccata Festiva for this orchestra, on the occasion of the installation of its previous organ in the old Academy of Music. It's wonderful music, brilliant and exciting but never vulgar or bombastic, sustained by the composer's trademark lyricism. Given that this is an "original cast recording", well, one generation removed, you might expect the performance to be a knockout, and it is. The engineering throughout this program is remarkable not just for its presence and amplitude, but also for the ideal balances between orchestra and organ, and for the clarity with which bass registers (organ pedals, timpani, bass drum, lower strings) are differentiated from one another. It's a genuine feast for the ears in that regard alone.

Poulenc's Organ Concerto also receives a thrilling and unremittingly intense reading, with some particularly outstanding string playing from the legendary Philadelphia players. Here, however, a problem begins to creep in that can be summed up in one word: Eschenbach. He always has had a tendency to mannerism, to self-indulgent slowness and affected phrasing. There are a few moments in the quieter sections of the concerto, beautiful as they are, where the music needs to press forward more purposefully. It's not a big issue, particularly when the strings and organist Olivier Latry realize Poulenc's instructions so well (such as the "intense" at figure 33), but it becomes an issue of considerable concern in the performance of the Organ Symphony.


In this latter work, Eschenbach's interpretation is just plain weird. Don't get me wrong: I like risk-taking, but a composer like Saint-Saëns demands that Romantic abandon be balanced with a measure of Classical restraint. The Poco adagio second movement, played "molto adagio", is the slowest ever. This may be the only recording in which it lasts substantially longer than the first movement, which is splendidly articulated in this performance but also moderately paced. The actual tempo wouldn't matter so much if Eschenbach didn't pause to massage every phrase along the way--and quite frankly the result is tasteless. Obviously the music should sound sweet, but what we have here is the musical equivalent of a diabetic coma.


As if to compensate, Eschenbach rushes the scherzo mercilessly. The orchestra takes it all in stride, and good for them--but the music comes off as grim and almost totally lacking in charm. In the trio section I do wish the cymbal player had used a hard stick. He's part of the rhythm section here, and at Eschenbach's tempo the melodic profile is blurry enough. For the most part the finale proceeds slowly and heavily until the coda, when Eschenbach indulges in an accelerando to something like twice the indicated speed, and then blasts through the final pages like a bat out of hell. Again, the impression is vulgar rather than exciting, and while I have no doubt that the performance must have been impressive heard live, this simply isn't a view of the work that needed to be preserved on disc.


So this is a mixed bag. Like most documents of "occasions", you have to take the good with the bad. I need to stress that as usual the orchestra plays fabulously, and both the Barber and Poulenc are pretty terrific. But by the same token the main item is the symphony, and Eschenbach is simply out of his element here. We live in difficult times when it comes to conductors. Between the mindlessly pedantic "authenticists" and the narcissistic micro-managers, good, solid generalists with the ability to give freshly idiomatic performances of a wide-ranging repertoire seem ever more difficult to find. This program promises much but only partially delivers, and the fault lies squarely with the guy on the podium.

 
 
 
« Last Edit: February 19, 2007, 10:33:36 PM by sperlsco »

Offline sperlsco

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Re: I'm getting this anyway, but . . .
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2007, 06:27:12 PM »
For the most part the finale proceeds slowly and heavily until the coda, when Eschenbach indulges in an accelerando to something like twice the indicated speed, and then blasts through the final pages like a bat out of hell. Again, the impression is vulgar rather than exciting, and while I have no doubt that the performance must have been impressive heard live, this simply isn't a view of the work that needed to be preserved on disc.

I have been eagerly awaiting this one since it was first announced.  I have about dozen or so versions of the Saint-Saens' Organ Symphony, and really am not "completely" thrilled with any of them.  My favorite two are the famous Munch on SACD, and the Barenboim/CSO.   If Munch actually accelerated the music more at the closing (like Barenboim), it would be perfect to me.  Barenboim suffers a little bit from harsh sound, and also suffers from some reticent cymbals in certain parts.  His ending is absolutely thrilling, though. 

So when I read the above comments from DH, it makes me think that I might really love this Eschenbach one.  Put that together with the fact that it is a multichannel SACD and ... look out!

I agree that Eschenbach has a propensity to s-t-r-e-t-c-h the limits of slow movements.  I have radio rips of an M4 with an overly slow Adagio, an M6 with a 19' Andante, and his M5's generally have 12'+ Adagiettos.  IIRC, his Philly M3 has a final movement of 29'+, but I've not had a chance to hear it. 

As for me, I can't wait for his Organ Symphony!! 
Scott

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: I'm getting this anyway, but . . .
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2007, 03:57:12 PM »
With the new hall and new organ, hopefully there's an awesome M2 or M8 in Philly's future.

Offline Ben

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Re: I'm getting this anyway, but . . .
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2007, 04:48:45 PM »
Eschenbach is doing M8 (as well as M7) next year at Carnegie Hall with Philly, so I assume they'll have performed it a few times back home.  Perhaps Ondine will have plans to record it?

I'll have to pick up this new Saint-Saens recording.  I'm pretty intrigued by it.  If the organ is as good as they say, an M8 or M2 could be wonderful - well, at least from the organ's standpoint.  ;)

Ben

PS-All but M4 and M6 I believe are being performed at Carnegie next season.  Good times for those on the east coast.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: I'm getting this anyway, but . . .
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2007, 09:17:52 AM »
Well, what do-ya know; the "Resurrection" symphony is happening May 3-8, 2007, and the Mahler 7 is happening March 12-15, 2008. The "Symphony Of A (half) Thousand" will be May 1-6, 2008 at Verizon, with the following line-up:
 
The Philadelphia Orchestra 
Christoph Eschenbach,  conductor 
Christine Brewer,  soprano 
Michaela Kaune,  soprano 
Marisol Montalvo,  soprano 
Stephanie Blythe,  mezzo-soprano 
Charlotte Hellekant,  mezzo-soprano 
Paul Groves,  tenor 
Franco Pomponi,  baritone 
James Morris,  bass 
The Philadelphia Singers Chorale,  David Hayes, music director 
Westminster Symphonic Choir,  Joe Miller, music director 
Mendelssohn Club of Philadelphia,  Alan Harler, music director 

Verizon Hall

I'm going to buy tickets to see this. It would be dumb for some label not to record this show. Hopefully, Ondine will step up to the plate. I didn't know that James Morris was still singing!

For the mean time, we can just listen to the S-S Organ Symphony, and salivate over the idea of adding a huge chorus; childrens chorus; seven soloists; a mandolin; a big gong, and a partridge in a pair tree.
 


 



 
« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 09:29:07 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline sperlsco

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If anybody is thinking of getting this one, I recommend it highly.  I listened to it this weekend in multichannel SACD and found it to be an unbelievable experience.  In fact, when I listen to this symphony, I want to come away from it feeling like I had a memorable experience.  This is one of the few versions that pretty well satisfies me (along with the Barenboim/Chicago one).  However, I can definitely see someone being put off by the eccentricities in overall tempo -- not me though.  As a full piece, I like what Eschenbach is doing.  Everything seems to flow very naturally, with the possible exception of the beginning of the second part (third movement if you will), which still works fine albeit being a bit jarring to start.  In the finale, Eschenbach's accelerando into the coda is perfectly felt and absolutely thrilling (and why should it be any other way?).  The organ is really superbly captured, and the brass pales only in comparison to the Chicagoans.  The Philly trumpets seem to lose a little steam at the very end, but that is just picking nits.  Ondine's sound is very realistic, clear, sharp, and full bodied.  The organ sound can be absolutely roof and window rattling, but also very nuanced and clear. 

Now do not, I repeat DO NOT listen to the Munch version after the Eschenbach, like I did.  I really do like the Munch, but the RCA Living Stereo sound does not hold a candle to the stunning sonics from Ondine.  I was previously impressed by the Munch organ, but fugettaboutit after listening to the realistic and roof rattling Philly one.  I also listened to the SACD from the ATMA label by the Orchestra Métropolitain du Grand Montréal.  It got a 10/10 from DH.  It is a decent straight forward version, but I cannot see giving it a 10/10.  The organ is no better than decent, as is the orchestra.  I give the recording no extra credit for featuring a third-tier orchestra that is giving its best.  Perhaps the orchestral balance is the key to the classical interpretation about which DH speaks, but it is NOT how I want to hear this symphony.   In particular, the Montreal brass just do not cut it.   

Would I have liked the Eschenbach one to have more normal tempos, featuring the same stunning sound, same playing, and same organ -- well ... perhaps (as long as it still contains the thrilling accelerando at the coda).  But I will happily take this one.  It is definitely an interpretation -- and one that I loved! 
Scott

Offline barry guerrero

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I want to second what Scott says here. This is the most grand and realistic organ/orchestra disc I've ever heard. As D.H. stated himself in his less than thoroughly enthusiastic review, there's no hint of "steeliness" to the organ tone. Yet, it sound positively monstrous. I also liked the placement of the two pianos in the finale: not too close, but not TOO distant either. As for Eschenbach's unusual tempi; I don't turn to the Saint-Saens' "Organ" symphony for "interpretation" - I couldn't care less. I don't listen to this piece as French Beethoven with organ accompaniment. I want the full potential of this work to be fully realized. This one comes the closest to actually being there, and getting knocked on your can. The cymbal playing is some of the best I've heard on CD in many, many years.

Actually, I rather enjoyed Eschenbach's slower than usual tempo for the poco adagio movement. It didn't strike me as cloying at all. Indeed, the scherzo starts out so fast, that the articulations to the fast notes get blurred. However, it's kind of nice to have those ridiculous sounding afterbeat measures - the ones that happen right after the movement's initial statement - whiz by quicker than usual. Yes, the scherzo is a bit frantic sounding, but it's just plain exciting too. No harm done, as far as I can see. It's not trying to be a rustic dance.

I love the Barber piece that opens this disc. Think of hearing one of Barber's "Essay For Orchestra" pieces (there are three of them); crossed with the "wild hunt" scene from Schoenberg's "Gurrelieder", and then toss in a giant organ that zooms in and out of the foreground. All that's missing are Schoenberg's rattling chains. It's a lot of fun to hear, and it's perfect for for an organ inauguration concert. As for the Poulenc Organ Concerto   .     .     .   well, once again, I just don't care that much. I've always liked his harpsichord concerto much more - "Concert Champetre" - but Eschenbach's recording of the organ concerto seems perfectly serviceable to me.

All this bodes extremely well for the upcoming Eschenbach/Philly M2 and M8 concerts - especially M8, where a strong organ contribution is vital. Let's hope that Ondine actually records these. Again, especially the 8th.

Barry
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 09:10:40 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline Eric Nagamine

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.     .     .    but D.H. only rated it a 7/10. I'm going to get for all of the positive reasons that he cites. I can live with Eschenbach's weird tempi and phrasing - I think. Here goes:......
 There are a few moments in the quieter sections of the concerto, beautiful as they are, where the music needs to press forward more purposefully. It's not a big issue, particularly when the strings and organist Olivier Latry realize Poulenc's instructions so well (such as the "intense" at figure 33), but it becomes an issue of considerable concern in the performance of the Organ Symphony.


In this latter work, Eschenbach's interpretation is just plain weird. Don't get me wrong: I like risk-taking, but a composer like Saint-Saëns demands that Romantic abandon be balanced with a measure of Classical restraint. The Poco adagio second movement, played "molto adagio", is the slowest ever. This may be the only recording in which it lasts substantially longer than the first movement, which is splendidly articulated in this performance but also moderately paced. The actual tempo wouldn't matter so much if Eschenbach didn't pause to massage every phrase along the way--and quite frankly the result is tasteless. Obviously the music should sound sweet, but what we have here is the musical equivalent of a diabetic coma.


As if to compensate, Eschenbach rushes the scherzo mercilessly. The orchestra takes it all in stride, and good for them--but the music comes off as grim and almost totally lacking in charm. In the trio section I do wish the cymbal player had used a hard stick. He's part of the rhythm section here, and at Eschenbach's tempo the melodic profile is blurry enough. For the most part the finale proceeds slowly and heavily until the coda, when Eschenbach indulges in an accelerando to something like twice the indicated speed, and then blasts through the final pages like a bat out of hell. Again, the impression is vulgar rather than exciting, and while I have no doubt that the performance must have been impressive heard live, this simply isn't a view of the work that needed to be preserved on disc.



Munch, Martinon, or Ormandy he ain't. I was irritated by Eschenbach's conducting the more I listened to the Saint Saens. At his speeds in the Scherzo especially, the orchestra sounds less than in great form. Phrasing often sounded clipped. In standard stereo, I thought the sound to be so-so, not as good as the previous Mahler 6th with a tendency to slightly overload when the organ was playing out loud. Eschenbach's previous recordings with the orchestra were workman like, listenable but nothing really offensive. This however, is the exception IMO. IIRC, the Philadelphia Inquirer critic really liked the peformance. I wonder what he was smoking at the time  :P

I'd really have rather heard this repertory recorded in L.A.'s Disney Hall which I think is the better listening enviornment.

-------

Eric Nagamine

Offline barry guerrero

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Oh well. I like it, and I have absolutely no problem with the sound. All of the other recordings of the S-S sound almost pathetic in comparion; at least on my equipment. I have a few of the usual suspects: Munch; De Waart; Ormandy; Mata. As I say, I don't listen to this work for tempo relationships. I also really like the Barber. Then again, I already said that.

Funny, because I have almost the opposite reaction to you, Eric. The more I listen to Eschenbach's M6, the more his sloooooow paced andante movement bothers me. I don't think it's such a great conducting job on his M6  (better than MTT!), but the playing by Philly more than makes up for it. Eschenbach's slow tempo for the poco adagio in the S-S, on the other hand, doesn't bother me in the least. I didn't find it cloying, like D.H. suggests. And yes, the start of the scherzo is so fast, that the articulation of the fast notes are blurred. But we already know how the start of the scherzo goes - it's not like you can't identify what it is. And, let's face it, those ridiculous sounding measures that follow the start of the scherzo - the ones with the annoying afterbeats in the woodwinds - who could begin to take those measures seriously? The faster they go by, the better, in my book. Yep, it's a bit frantic sounding, but it's also just exciting. As I said, I just can't take this piece that seriously - as though it were French Beethoven. I can take it seriously as a sound spectacular: a wonderful mish-mash of noise that's both elegant and trashy at the same time. And that, my friends, is just plain fun.

Barry
« Last Edit: February 21, 2007, 09:52:02 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline sperlsco

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And, let's face it, those ridiculous sounding measures that follow the start of the scherzo - the ones with the annoying afterbeats in the woodwinds - who could begin to take those measures seriously? The faster they go by, the better, in my book. Barry

 ;D  LOL   ;D

I can't say that I agree with that, but it sure is funny!
Scott

Offline barry guerrero

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Scott,

I'll even take my point of view a step further. If the name on the front page were a German one, like Bruckner, instead of a French one, nobody would take much issue with the tempi being played with. Instead, it would sort of be expected in the constant search for the right "interpretation", and the unearthing of the "Deutsche Seele" (German soul). But since it's Saint-Saens, everybody expects it to be totally straight forward, and not fussed with in the slightest. I can understand that, but it's not why I listen to the piece.

Barry

Offline barry guerrero

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OK, I've gone back and listened through it again. Yes, it's different. But I really like the poco adagio at Eschenbach's slower tempo. The start of the slow movement has an uncanny resemblence to the start of Mahler's "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen" (I'm Lost To The World). It even sounds a tiny tad like the famous adagietto to M5. The climax of the movement, as well as some quiet linking passages, remind very much of Bruckner. Even the ending of the slow movement is almost pure Bruckner. In the second part of the poco adagio, the melody is more or less stated again, but the high strings have some fairly busy sounding, arpeggiated figures going on. How fast can you take that stuff? Again, if a German composer had penned this, nobody would have a problem with it. The scherzo, on the other hand, is fairly frantic sounding.

But let's face it, there's a lot of very busy, almost comical sounding music that happens in this scherzo. Some of it reminds me of Berlioz, and some of it reminds me of Paul Dukas' "Sorcerer's Appentice". I won't try to justify Eschenbach's ultra fast tempo, but I will say this much for it:  it makes for a very strong contrast to the quiet music that leads up to the start of the fourth movement - the organ roar from hell. If we were to think of this music in narrative terms, it's as though that slow and quiet linking material were an escape from someplace that was just hellishly busy and petty: the hustle and bustle of earth's conjested cities, perhaps? Regardless, it's different, and it does work for me. Yes, Eschenbach's scherzo is uncomfortable to listen to, and it's even difficult to sort out what's going on in some of its busier segments. But one also has a welcomed sense of release when we finally get to that slow, quiet, string dominated transitional passage; leading us onward to the big organ chord.

The people in the audience were obviously knocked out their chairs - just judging from the applause - and I think that they were right to feel that way.

Barry
« Last Edit: February 21, 2007, 11:20:26 PM by barry guerrero »

 

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