Author Topic: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD  (Read 24682 times)

Offline John Kim

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2008, 11:20:38 PM »
An amzon.com reviewer gives an enthusiastic rating - I am sold and will rush to get this one:

"So far along, Gergiev is right in the process of giving us a full Mahler symphonies cycle. So far, these musicians/label have released the first, sixth, and seventh symphonies - each derived in live sessions mixed from several concerts at London's Barbican home for the band. I have auditioned each one so far in multichannel super audio. My choices so far in this series are the first and the seventh. I was fully prepared to welcome and embrace the whole series if the results persuaded me, but alas, I do not so far find the sixth symphony to be completely persuasive, vivid and successful as it no doubt is when taken solely on its own Toscanini-like terms. To my ears, this sixth is strong, but so devoted to relentless forward drive that I feel the contrasting lyrical dimensions of the sixth are compromised. Toscanini supposedly said of Bruno Walter, Oh Walter, when he hits something nice he melts and goes all to pieces. Gergiev can relax, certainly. Though nobody would ever accuse him of doing a Bruno Walter when it comes to melting, floating textures or lyricisms. So far in Gergiev and Mahler readings I miss the incredibly deft genius touches of, say, a Jascha Horenstein who could somehow mystically combine high lush sweetness with heart-aching, bone chilling Late Romantic Weltschmerz.

So we come to this third symphony. Again it is mixed from live concerts in the Barbican, from just about a year ago in 2007. The sound is accurate and vivid, with kudos going to veteran James Malinson and his technical team. I again am listening in multichannel. Let's go movement by movement.

The first movement is impressive. The opening fanfare does not quite scare the daylights out of me, as the famous Horenstein Third fanfare somehow still does every time I play it. (Good thing I lucked out by getting Horenstein to the fav shelf way back, when still available, as I think now he is out of print. Worth the effort to go hunting, I still think. I also sometimes still wish Wyn Morris had recorded the third symphony.) Yes, Gergiev is typically forward moving through the whole first movement. He does allow pauses and plenty of space to breathe at times. His drive does not to me compromise getting at some potentially raw, chilling sense of the deep, mysterious, fearsome shadows that the Nature God Pan casts in the deep heart of the mountains and forests, even at noonday.

The second movement is well nigh musically priceless. Gergiev gets his band to float and dance, charm and reminisce, and hard forward rhythmic or overall tempo drive never for even a fleeting mini-second intrudes or glosses over or rushes too hurriedly. This movement genuinely captures a chamber music lightness and intimacy that has not exactly been plentiful in the Gergiev Mahler series discs to date. The brief episodes which prefigure the posthorn to come are supple and tender and emphasize the third's through line of evolving continuity to an extent that other conductors do not always convey.

Hearing all these wonderful touches in the second movement, I began to really get my hopes up for this third. I thought that maybe Gergiev was going to end up being Horenstein's interpretive equal after all, albeit in his own typical way, even taking account of the forward drive that strikes me as a sort of hat tip to Arturo Toscanini.

My first audition of this reading was on portable player with ear phones. That time, in red book CD stereo, I could hardly hear the beautiful posthorn solos of the third movement - if at all. Touches of the solo phrases still dimly remained in passing, but listening on the portable with earphones, the counterpoint and accompaniments to the solo - which eventually garland and ground its wistfulness - giving the whole episodes a structural impact in addition to the expressive touches - were too loud, too prominent, imagining the solo my only recourse. Uncomfortably so. This reminded me of the aural distance problem of the solo as captured in Benjamin Zander's otherwise authoritative Telarc super audio recording of the third symphony. Count dim this hearing of the posthorn solo, a troubling failure, then. In fairness I knew I needed to listen again on the home rig, in multichannel, to see if the dimness and distance of the posthorn solo stayed consistent.

In the home rig round, the surround sound did a much improved job of allowing the all-important posthorn solo to be present, coming through. Gergiev starts off the scherzo-like third movement with the intimate touches with which he so endearingly played the second movement. Even when the tempo speeds up and woodwinds squeak garishly or brass bray, he can return to the mood and color of the earlier music. So Gergiev and band layer mountain meadows posy charms with folk tales and fireside hearthside country warmth. Although now aurally present, the posthorn solo hovers just on the ghostly ethereal brinks of disappearing, and to tell the truth, I still hear this as a passing minor musical flaw. Distancing and dimming the solo player may well have served in the live concert, given the real physical acoustics of the hall. Yet I do not hear that it all quite works in recorded home listening. In portable red book stereo listening, the posthorn solo may as well not exist at all, and this detracts from what Gergiev and band are no doubt trying to offer us. By the end of the movement, with the remainder of the orchestra joining in, the Nature God Pan and minions are reappearing, though the uncanny chill is markedly diminished. It is as easy to feel that maybe we have imagined it all in a Grimm Brothers fairy tale reverie, instead of a frightening live encounter with some raw and deified animal nature that would just as soon eat us as look at us unmoved, impassive, impervious to our humanity. The brash, toothsomely grinned coda however might remind us otherwise, of Pan in the first movement.

In the Nietzsche text movement that follows, alto Anna Larsson is lovely and steady. She is supposed to be singing of deep mysteries, glimpsed and felt and heard right at the stroke of musical midnight, after all. Now Ms. L does not quite eclipse sung memories of, say, Jesseye Norman, or Dame Janet Baker - but she is herself very nicely, and her singing renders comparisons more odious than not. Woods, brass, and strings nicely inflect and counterpoint her solo song - again with a transparent chamber music intimacy that is closer to string quartet or string sextet than to symphony. Tief ist ihr Weh. Lust, tiefer noch aus Herzeleidt.

Next comes the brighter bim-bamm sonics of the Lustig Wunderhorn song movement, livened up with that enchanting - even arch - combination of boys choir, women, and the alto soloist doing another musical scene all together. It is inevitably part and parcel of the composer's controversial musical genius that he can draw upon folk poetry texts set to folkish music as a way of giving us a homespun interlude after the deep longing and pain of Nietzsche's midnight, invisibly opening the doors to God.

So the final movement follows right upon the Wunderhorn song. Gergiev and band start it off with much of the same delicacy and chamber transparency that they have shown in the second and third and fourth movements, especially. A seemingly facile, ineffable flow of folksy and intimate string band textures somehow adds to the listener's imperceptibly accumulating grasp of the third - all of one piece, not a disconnected parade of externally-derived program music. The last movement proceeds with a masterly growth, evolving magically into the reaches of the large orchestra entire. Woodwind and brass entries do not at first perturb the music's intimate touch, though wrenching enharmonic string and brass perorations soon reveal to us how profoundly all personal tragedies are suffered and survived by being human tragedies. First the strings then the rest of this large orchestra, more and more come to embody what human love embodies and reveals of God - just pretty much as Mahler told others who talked with him in letters and conversations about what made this new third symphony tick.

By the end of the symphony, I count this Gergiev release as among his most successful overall, as well as being a clear high point in his ongoing Mahler cycle. Indeed, to my ears, Gergiev could well have used the same genius to further improve his worthwhile reading of the first symphony, both in regards to the nature picture painting and in regards to the multiple meanings and functions of the folk roots.

I still prize Horenstein. I'm adding Gergiev to the fav shelf. "

Offline Dave H

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2008, 12:56:15 AM »
Oy vey!

Dave H

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2008, 04:33:54 AM »
Yeah, I agree. That's a tad much, even for me. The only big difference between David and myself - other than the fact that I'm enthused about this release, and I guess David isn't that much - is that while David gave it a 7/8 rating, I'd give it an 8/7. I like the performance, but am not that crazy about the dry acoustics or Mallinson's recording techniques. So, in spite of whatever back-and-forth stuff David and I have had over Gergiev's M3, we're not that far apart in terms of how we'd actually rate the thing. 

You know, I keep forgetting that I once gave a 10/10 rating to the Andrew Litton/Dallas M3 (Delos), and that I still think that it's pretty darn good by any standard (I really like the true contralto employed). I happen to think that the Simon Rattle one is one his best studio efforts with Mahler as well. Then there's the very forthright Ozawa/BSO one; with an excellent vocal contribution from Jessye Norman, not to mention just an outrageous amplitude level from the BSO trombones at the climax of the slow moment's long brass chorale. They just nail the daylights out of their two-part harmony there, starting from the final cymbal crash. That's another performance that doesn't exactly dawdle from beginning to end either. Maybe David's right - maybe I do need to dry up. Seriously, there are a lot of sections and ideas that I like in Gergiev's M3. We're just truly spoiled for choices these days, is all. It was a very different story just 20 or 25 years ago.

Barry
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 04:52:41 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline Dave H

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2008, 12:54:23 PM »
Amazing, isn't it? Litton and Ozawa are both terrific (Rattle less so in my book), but who ever talks about them now? I think both are clearly better than Gergiev. And if you like quick, here's also Neumann on Supraphon (a performance I love despite the weird brass harmony in the first movement), and Salonen, with the bass drum doubling timpani at the end. It all just goes to show how difficult it is not to overpraise a new performance simply because it's the most recent one you may have heard.
Dave H

Offline John Kim

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2008, 03:55:02 PM »
Sorry for my spoiling :'(, but the sonics of the Litton M3rd really let me down. It's not only a low level recording but lacks details (even at higher volume) and sounds pretty opaque. Interpretively Litton has a few good points but overall I'd much prefer the Ozawa or even Nagano.

John,

Offline Dave H

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2008, 05:44:08 PM »
I have an excellent solution for low-level recordings: turn up the volume. It's only a problem when there's still no impact (more a function of mike placement than level). I agree that Litton presents a more homogenized sound than some, but I don't find it opaque at all--merely naturally balanced in a large acoustic space.

Now, let's not forget Rogner--a real "sleeper" of a performance, also on the swift side.

Dave H

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2008, 06:24:41 AM »
For whatever reason, the snare drum player is great on the Rogner (1st movement). I think it's one of Todd's (Leo) favorite ones too.

Also Dave, I've been yelling at John to turn up the volume on low level recordings for years now   ;D

One more thing: If you want to talk Czech Phil. in M3, a bunch of us think that the Kobaysahi one is fabulous. The CPO is absolutely on fire for that particular performance. Unfortunately, you can also hear Kobayashi grunting and moaning along. He's totally into it!

Barry
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 06:29:19 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline Leo K

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2008, 06:56:24 AM »
Yes, I do love the Rogner M3, especially the first three movements...very colorful performance here with much detail to enjoy...the Finale let me down, but it isn't a disaster by any means.

Also, I second the Kobayashi/CPO M3 on Exton...with excellant brass all around. :)

--Todd

Offline John Kim

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2008, 02:45:51 PM »
Sorry Dave & Barry, but even if I crank up the volume the Litton M3rd still has the same issue - it sounds murky and somewhat oddly balanced  :-[ You know, the balance cannot be fixed by the volume.

John,


Offline Dave H

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2008, 05:44:47 PM »
I've always found Kobayashi to be rather bland. I think the orchestra is carrying him. Same with Macal. If you want CHARACTER at a swift tempo, try Kondrashin!

Dave H

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2008, 04:50:46 PM »
I have the totally opposite reaction. The Czech Phil. play Mahler 3 with far more intensity under Kobayashi than they normally do. The horns blaze away, and the strings really dig in. Regardless of who's carrying who, he clearly knows the work. The sound isn't that great, but the intensity of the performance really comes through. I agree that Neumann's M3 has a lot of character. The Supraphon sound is really good too. On top of that, Christa Ludgwig is the far better mezzo.  But Kobayashi's last movement is far better, in my opinion. The horns are trombones are much stronger at the climactic passage of the long brass chorale, for example (Czech Phil. trumpets are always good though). Also, how could somebody with Neumann's keen sense of balance - combined with a discerning ear for good tonal quality - think that it was somehow correct that the trumpets be playing in parallel perfect fourths in the "southern storm" development passage of the first movement? That's character, all right! I also find him a tad "poopy" in the choral "bim-bam" movement. I think that the best movements on Neumann's celebrated recording of Mahler 3 are the second, third, and fourth ones. On the other hand, I agree that Macal's M3 borders on being fairly bland. So far, the best recordings in Macal's Mahler cycle are M4 and M7. Both of those are very good.

Barry
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 08:00:04 PM by barry guerrero »

Offline John Kim

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2008, 07:59:48 PM »
Barry,

Wait!

"The sound isn't that great"

?? :-[

I think whether it's in regular CD or SACD layer the Kobayashi/CPO/Exton M3rd is one of the best sounding Mahler recordings ever. I think you're thinking about his M2nd.

John,


Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2008, 08:01:51 PM »
It is from a live performance, and I'm comparing it to both Neumann and Macal - both of which have excellent sound quality. I'll go back and give this a re-listen.

Barry

Offline John Kim

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2008, 06:36:51 AM »
I finally received my copy.

I like Gergiev's first movt. very much. It is strong, heady but full of wonderful effects, especially from the woodwinds and bright, edgy brass. I like II & III as well; I didn't think the brass solo in III. was too distant and the ending was terrific albeit it was a bit too fast. I can see why DH didn't appreciate the fast tempos in IV and VI but they aren't bad at all. Actually, the tempo in VI is steady until the last 5 min. or so where he speeds up all the way to the end. The sound is just fine, the playing fantastic. This is a M3rd I will return to again when I am in the right mood, when I become bored by slow versions, e.g., Bernstein II. MTT II, Abbado I, etc.

John,

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2008, 08:13:18 AM »
I just really like Gergiev's pacing. In fact, in some respects, I think his first movement is the weakest. I really like his last movement. It's not so much that he's fast until the very end of the symphony. Instead, if you really pay attention, you'll observe that he pushes forward to the symphony's last cymbal crash. At that spot, he's suddenly a bit more broad in tempo, rather than pushing ahead even more. As I said before, if had done just a bit more of a ritardando in the final few bars of the symphony, that would have been really sweet - the effect that he was striving for really would have come off.

Really, it's such a more positive; more forthright; more energetic, and less pious or devout way of looking at the symphony.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 08:16:13 AM by barry guerrero »

 

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