Author Topic: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD  (Read 24685 times)

Offline John Kim

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DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« on: October 16, 2008, 10:59:36 PM »
This performance starts with a bang, but ends with a whimper. The Mahler Third is admittedly a schizophrenic work, starting with perhaps his most colorful orchestral phantasmagoria (lots of winds, brass, and percussion) and ending with a sublime Adagio in the grand German tradition (meaning heavy on strings). Valery Gergiev and the LSO are great when the music is fast, loud, percussive, glittery, and band-like, and much less successful when it's not. So the first movement is terrific--excellent work from the horns and solo trombone, no stinting on the vulgarity in the "Southern Storm" episode just before the recapitulation, and a take-no-prisoners coda that's as skillfully shaped as it is exciting. "At last!" you might think, "Gergiev has finally gotten himself completely together for a whole symphony." Well, you would be wrong.

The second movement continues the fine impression made by the first: lovely oboe solo and nicely contrasted tempos between sections. The scherzo also features some very characterful winds, but the posthorn episodes are too slow and droopy, the solo is balanced very distantly, and the coda is rushed beyond the capability of the trombones and tam-tam to articulate cleanly. Anna Larsson sings adequately in the fourth movement (she's making a career of this symphony, appearing also in Abbado's recent video), but Gergiev's tempo sounds rushed, the "nature sounds" are uninterestingly matter-of-fact, and the whole thing is both surprisingly rough and deficient in the mysterious atmosphere Mahler requires.

Matters improve once again for the "Bim Bam" fifth movement, with the boys' choir singing lustily and making an unforgettably vivid impression. The sinister central episode also comes off well, but the finale is a real letdown. It's not so much that it's quickly paced, relatively speaking (about 20 minutes); the problem is that tension isn't well distributed, and the strings cannot sustain the necessary intensity even at this unchallenging speed. Consider the big climax bringing back the material from the first movement: it's both rushed and underpowered. Note how the strings seem to recede into the background against the brass and timpani, while even those instruments seem anxious to back off Mahler's extreme dynamics. The soft brass chorale that follows lacks the necessary serene legato phrasing, and the closing pages are simply played too quickly and too crudely (Mahler asks for "noble, full tone"--you can't call those screaming trumpets "noble"!).

Gergiev is not the most reflective of artists, and this symphony really shows up his inability to deliver the goods in music that requires a healthy measure of sensitivity and architectural control. The sonics, which favor the winds and percussion over the strings, might have something to do with it, but as with so many Gergiev performances you come away feeling that he simply hasn't lived with the music long enough to play all of it equally well. Some of it interests him more than the rest. That said, the good bits are pretty spectacular, and collectors may well want to hear this release for one of the better first movements in recent memory. For that reason, it earns a qualified recommendation.


--David Hurwitz




Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2008, 05:22:47 PM »
I listened to most of this last night, and I really like it. I would probably give it an 8 or 9 for performance, but certainly think that a 7 rating is fair in lieu of the stiff competition these days. I certainly don't like it any more than Chailly; Zinman; Boulez/VPO; Haitink I; Bernstein I, etc. - not to mention the dvd that just came out with Abbado/LFO - but I like it just the same. I think that the generally quick tempi work well with the LSO's lean and mean style, not to mention the dry acoustics of The Barbican. I mean, heaven forbid that Mahler should actually sound exciting, and that these symphonies shouldn't sit around on your stereo all day long either. The piece isn't "Parsifal", and I don't think that it sound even remotely like Parsifal.

I particularly like the fast tempi in the two vocal movements, which is where this symphony so often times just dies in inferior performances; especially the fourth movement, which I think is often times performed too slow by a third. Beyond that, the music just sounds like it so badly wants to move forward at "Doch alle Lust will Ewigkeit! Will tief, tiefe Ewigkeit". Why shouldn't the tempo reflect that sentiment ? I also like how Gergiev handles tempi throughout the long brass chorale in the sixth movement.

At the spot where the trombones take over the chorale melody at a full forte - a couple of minutes into the long chorale - Gergiev really pushes forward. That in itself isn't unusual. But what is novel, is that he keeps on pushing forward in the four measures (or so) leading up to the symphony's final cymbal crash (accompanied by rolls in the timpani and bass drum). This takes the emphasis off of the pious sounding quarter-notes in the horns, and focuses our attention on to the ascending half-notes in the trumpets. This way, when you finally reach the cymbal crash, there's actually a slight broadening of tempo instead of the music moving forward again. In other words, you've more or less "reached" your destination when you get to the cymbal crash. This "interpretation" (I hate that word) would have worked even better if Gergiev had done more of a rallentando (slow down) in the final few bars of the entire symphony. There needs to be more effect of the "wheel of life" turning slower and slower near the end.

Let me say that I also just love the LSO brass section. They're a little bright sounding, but their horns are just magnificent. Unlike Chicago, the horns don't play second fiddle to trumpets and trombones that so often times over-play their dynamic markings either. Chicago just comes off as a bit cold, stiff, and mechanical to me - which is why they're so good in Shostakovich - and so I'll take this brass section over Chicago's any day. The low strings, on the other hand, are an entirely different matter (just to be fair).

The LSO also have sort of strange sounding woodwinds; and that strangeness is really a plus in Mahler 3, where the woodwinds are so often times imitating weird bird calls, and need to just cut through very thick brass and string textures (not to mention a huge battery of percussion). Believe me, they succeed in cutting here. That's a plus.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 12:29:58 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline John Kim

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2008, 06:04:49 PM »
Barry,

Thanks.

Can you give us timings for each movt.?

John,

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2008, 10:47:37 PM »
Here's a copy & paste from a previous posting that I did:

battle of the M3 titans!

       Abbado     Gergiev

I       34:06        32:22
II        8:20         9:41  -  I'm thinkin' that Abbado's 8:20 is probably 9:20
III     16:25        17:20
IV      9:19          8:35
 V      4:24          3:50
VI     23:41        20:22

By the way, the middle development passage of the scherzo (3rd movement) - the part eventually leads to the final reprise of the posthorn solo - is excellent here. Then again, Abbado does that passage pretty well too (while Haitink is as flat as a pancake).

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2008, 01:48:55 AM »
I just played Mvts II - VI in the store today, and I still really like it. The whole piece just flows so well. It just needs to slow down a bit more on the final three chords of the symphony. Honestly, I'm so tired of some conductors trying to turn Mahler's fast movements into Brahms, and his slow movements into Bruckner. I can see where a performance like this might be kind of a turn-off or shock in the concert hall, but I think it works quite well on record. Fritz Reiner said that he would perform works a bit faster for recordings.

Offline Dave H

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2008, 03:03:54 AM »
Barry:

I really think you are overstating your case. It's possible to be quick without being as crude and insensitive as Gergiev is in the fourth movement and finale. You know I tend to prefer quick tempos too, but he's conducing bar by bar here rather than giving any thought to shape and phrasing. And the LSO strings really let the game down--I agree the brass are largely very good, but that's not what the quieter moments require (except for the chorale at the end). Those horns in the fourth movement really are not special (there's a positively vile moment just before the "recap" section that's terribly out of tune, or so it sounds). I don't see how you can compare this to the other recordings that you list, either as playing or conducting.

Dave H

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2008, 04:09:12 AM »
I think that I was very clear that I still like those other ones better, just for the very reasons that you state. That doesn't mean that there isn't room for me to like another performance that comes along. As you well know, I like this particular work very much, and this one is different enough that I intend to keep it. In spite of any sloppy playing or crudeness, I would take it over Haitink/CSO ANYDAY. That one just sounds dead loooong before leaving the station. For anyone who truly loves this work, I don't think that hearing Gergiev/LSO is going to do them any harm. Naturally, it wouldn't be my first recommendation. And, so far - at the risk of being at odds with your general opinion, David - I happen to like Gergiev's cycle very much. I think that there IS some guiding intelligence behind his work. Just go back and listen to Solti, if you want to revisit truly "brain dead" interpretations of Mahler. I don't care how well the Solti/CSO Mahler recordings were played, or about the glorious reputation of the CSO in the '70s. But neither do I feel that the LSO is perfect for everything either. I would never, for example, think of collecting Haitink's Beethoven with the LSO, regardless of how good of a job he may have done. They simply have the wrong sound for Beethoven. But for Mahler, I will occasionally tolerate the bright and slightly crude sound, as long as it's also genuinely exciting.  So, as I stated above, heaven forbid that Mahler should actually sound exciting from time to time.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 06:15:16 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline John Kim

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2008, 05:22:34 AM »
Barry,

Thanks.

I rather like Gergiev's timings. I'd give him a chance to convince me about the 20 min or so timing for the Finale. The only other fast VI that is convincing was Neumann's first recording. I also like it that III isn't neither too fast nor too slow; I think 17 min. is a good duration.

I went to Silver Platter in my area but they didn't carry it yet. But they had Abbado's DVD of M3rd  :-[

John,

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2008, 06:02:55 AM »
Well, just so that I don't steer you the wrong way, I do think that the dvd of Abbado/LFO doing M3 is the better item to purchase. The picture is very good; Abbado's conducting is quite decent; the playing and singing is mostly great, and the sound quality is very good. I got particularly good results playing it back in Dolby 5.1. Given that Gergiev's M3 is almost as expensive as the Medici Arts dvd, get the dvd.

One thing that we haven't discussed about Gergiev's M3 is the sound quality. For me, sound quality has been one of the downsides of Gergiev's cycle, so far. The Barbican is a very dry hall, and the LSO play with a mean and lean sort of sound that would surely benefit from a more flattering acoustic. Microphone placement seems to consistently catch too much of the timpani, while the bass drum is rather dry and thuddy sounding. However, the woodwinds do cut through much more than they have in previous releases in this series. In my opinion, there hasn't been one truly great orchestral recording made in London since the closing of Kingsway Hall. Then again, I've yet to hear the Jurowski/LPO "Manfred" that some people rave about.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 06:17:39 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline John Kim

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2008, 06:14:26 AM »
Barry,

Thanks for your steering.

I'll eventually get both but my preference now is the Gergiev. The only Gergiev/Mahler recording I have is the M6th and I like its recording sound very much. It sounds pretty natural and well balanced albeit it is somewhat distant. But at a high volume the sound becomes fuller, giving a real sense of live concert.

How is the sound quality of the Third compared to the Sixth?

John,

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2008, 06:22:01 AM »
Wellll, I think they're similar in sound. If Gergiev's M6 doesn't bother you, sound wise, then the 3rd probably won't either. But to truly answer the question objectively, I would need to go back and do some A/B comparisons. I'll try to do that, but I'm always short on spare time when I can still blast a stereo.

Offline Leo K

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2008, 07:50:38 AM »
Thanks Barry and Dave for your impressions...I'm definitely sold on trying both the Abbado and Gergiev M3...I've been largely into Bruckner lately, so this will be a nice change of pace.

--Todd

Offline Dave H

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2008, 02:15:37 PM »
"So, as I stated above, heaven forbid that Mahler should actually sound exciting from time to time."

Barry: Who could possibly disagree with that? We are in total agreement that there's too much dull, careful, slow Mahler out there, and if you like Gergiev more than I do, that's fine. I also agree he's got more to say in this music than Solti usually did, but again, just because someone else is worse in this regard doesn't make him wonderful. I still recommend the recording (with reservations) BECAUSE of the fast and exciting bits, which are terrific. I don't care whether or not you agree with me about this--not at all--I just think there's much more to the symphony than the elements you are choosing to emphasize, and I think you're discounting the real weakness of those other elements in Gergiev's performance. So I'm stressing this point merely to round out the discussion, not because I feel defensive or because I expect you to share my opinion. Ultimately, there's no reason why we can't have both--this isn't a zero-sum game, after all, and that's what the best performances give us.

Dave H

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2008, 04:10:19 PM »
OK, but what I'm saying is that there are - for me - elements in Gergiev's that help to compensate for the deficiencies that you've so accurately observed. For example   .    .   . 

Mvt III - Yes, the posthorn solos are a bit slow and distant. But they're nowhere as distant as they are on Ben Zander's M3, where you can barely hear it at all. Yes, I would prefer that the posthorn be a bit closer, and a bit faster. BUT, I think that the fast section in the middle - which is sort of a development section of the opening material - is done terrifically. That's a section that's very important to me, and I think that Gergiev/LSO do a good job of working the naughty forest animals into a genuine panic (just before the reprise of the posthorn). The fast coda didn't bother me that much either. Granted, those stupid Paiste gongs speak too slowly to be effective at such a quick tempo. But that's to be expected because it appears that the London orchestras have to intention of replacing them with sensible Wuhans.

Mvt. IV - Yes, this lacking a bit in atmosphere. But I'm convinced that's greatly because of the excessively dry acoustics and close microphone placement (from recording live). Given those factors, I think that the faster than normal timing makes a lot of sense. It's nice to hear those opening, oscillating whole-step notes in the basses - right at the very beginning of the movement (and elsewhere) - just for once, not move along at a snail's pace. Ms. Larsson doesn't sound her very best here, but it's also nice - for once - to hear the music move forward when you get those final stanza's about how "Lust" (joy) triumphs over "tiefe vey". To my ears, those swelling strings and horns sound like they really want to move forward.

Mvt V. - You've got to admit, this is pretty darn good "bim-bam" movement. I like how the kids really, REALLY shout "Liebe nur Gott" towards the end. I also like how Gergiev finishes off by letting the horns play the "Texaco" theme loudly, for once (You can trust your car to the man who wears the star  .   .  ).

Mvt. VI - I'm not nearly bothered by what happens in this movement as much as you are, David. I like Gergiev's pacing of it very much. Again, there's sort of a development section - about 2/3rds the way in, maybe - where the music sounds like it just wants to move forward. It starts out with pizzicatto notes  in the basses that accompany the upper strings. Then the notes get swirling faster in the upper strings, and their dynamics swell back and forth as well. Welllll, Gergiev let's that music move forward, but then slows down again where the brass and timpani enter, and the trumpets are sort of screaming on top. I thought that this particular moment was done very well. And as I stated above, I very much like how Gergiev handled the long brass chorale. Honestly, I could see how many people could be kind of repulsed by it, because it's quite different.

As I said, just before the symphony's final cymbal crash, Gergiev continues to increase the tempo, so that the focus is shifted on to the ascending half-notes in the trumpets, and less on the middle register quarter-notes in the horns. I think it helps lend to the feeling of really building up to something. I like the idea of actually broadening the tempo - instead of pushing forward - when we reach the final cymbal crash (accompanied by rolls in the timpani and bass drum). Truthfully, I think that Gergiev could have done this particular climax a bit better (it could always be better!), but he has the right idea - to my mind, that is.

As for the ending passage, with the timpani going back and forth on the tonic and dominant notes, I agree that it's a bit fast, and that the timpani are just a tad too loud. But hey, I'll take that over the opposite problems any day (too slow, or the timpani are too mushy sounding). And as I also stated, a bit more of a rallentando (he does slow down a bit) in the final few bars would have been helpful to his more "secular" (less pious sounding) interpretation of the finale. And yes, the trumpets are a tad bright sounding, but that really didn't bother me that much. At least they're not "screachy" in quality, like they are at the end of the Abbado/VPO M3.

So yes, this is not the most subtle or most atmospheric (in the softer parts) Mahler 3 ever to have come along. But given the dry acoustics and close microphone placement, not to mention that the LSO has never had the sweetest sounding upper strings among the world's big-name orchestras, I think that Gergiev's, "let's keep things scooting along" view of the work is quite appropriate. I like some of his ideas, even if they could be realized better in the future by someone else (or that some of them have been previously). I've heard worse, and I would take it over Haitink/CSO, MTT/SFSO, or any number of other performances that make Mahler's 3rd sound overly mature for its years, so to speak. It's nice to occassionally hear a performance that sort of reflects a lot of the nutty stuff that Mahler himself wrote about the piece ("one might think that they were in a tavern or pig sty", etc.).

I've got to run; I'm late.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 04:36:34 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline Dave H

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Re: DH gives 7/8 for Gergiev/LSO/LSO M3rd SACD
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2008, 11:53:57 PM »
Barry:

Again, I agree with much of what you are saying. For example, Gergiev is better than Zander as regards the posthorn, but then, as I also said previously, better than the worst does not make him the best. And that is my point: in writing a review I have to answer the question "How does this performance stack up against the best, the ideal, and the composer's clear intentions." You, on the other hand, are asking yourself "Do I like it, and why?" Different questions lead to different answers even given the same set of facts. I find little in Gergiev that I can't hear better done elsewhere aside from the moments that I note in the review. And there are performances that provide all of his thrills AND deliver the goods elsewhere too. I can't give his significant defects a pass, speaking professionally, just because there are other moments that I think are great. This doesn't meant that there's anything wrong with your liking the performance better than I did--I'll probably keep it too, if only for the first movement (and the middle section of the scherzo, which as you point out really is excellently done), but I have to try to judge the performance as a whole, and not merely in terms of the bits that I really like.

Dave H

 

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