revisit: early '80s Karajan M9 awfully hard to beat!

[barry guerrero]

I found a pristine copy of the "Karajan Gold" pressing of HvK's 1982 Mahler 9 for less than $8. This is about the fourth time I've owned this now. I must say, it spite of whatever small details that aren't exactly right, I just find myself listening in awe. This particular 9th just sustains so much intensity from start to finish. So many other ones poop-out somewhere along the way - usually after the first movement. I rarely play the 9th any more - saving it for when the mood really strikes - but I find find Karajan's live performance to be a totally humbling experience. I also greatly appreciate the fact that it comes with 50 billion extra tracks. I find that really useful when time is short. This time I'm keeping it (flawless copy!).

Barry

[Leo K]

Right on Barry...good to see this recording mentioned again...it really is amazing and just gets better over time.  I've never heard an M9 quite sound so objective and mystical at the same time.  I finally found the LP version and shall listen soon.



--Todd

[John Kim]

I am not as crazy as you people are about the Karajan.

The Berlin playing is not tidy and somewhat lacks Mahlerian idioms. Where is the cymbal roll at the first and second climaxes in I? Karajan's reading can best be described as "intensely smooth and beautiful but without much bite". I prefer his live Salzburg concert from the same year (1982?).

John,

[barry guerrero]

Yes, but a person can't walk into a store and buy the one you're referring to. And as I also mentioned, I appreciate having 50 billion extra tracks. For the time being, this one will do just fine.

[bluesbreaker]

Karajan's m9 sounds too much like............hmmmmm......., Karajan.
Nothing more, nothing less.

[barry guerrero]

"Karajan's m9 sounds too much like............hmmmmm......., Karajan"

Yeah, but see; the reason I like his M9 so much, is that it DOESN'T sound like the usual Karajan, such as when he's doing Bruckner, for example (I do like his VPO B8). Let me explain: Karajan used to say that every piece of music has only one true climax. But he didn't conduct his Bruckner that way. For the most part, it was just a series of huge, overriding climaxes - one after another. Karajan conducted Bruckner with the same sort of enthusiasm that Bernstein nearly always applied to Mahler. But Karajan's Mahler 9 isn't like that. The third climax is, indeed, THE main climax of the first movement. And Karajan truly nails the climax of the fourth movement Adagio, which many people fail to do. He succeeded in making the two big climaxes in the two outer movements, truly the major climaxes of the work (and actually, the first movement climax is an "anti"-climax). As a result, it gives the work - as Todd mentioned - an overriding sense of line. Anyway, I like it.

Barry

[John Kim]

The third climax is, indeed, THE main climax of the first movement.

Yes, but the four timpani strokes that follow sound too "smooth" and legato. It is as if Karajan is saying, "Now that you got the huge climax I will round it off!". The whole movt. gets such treatment from this conductor. OTOH, Lenny and Levine, to name only two, gave out all the punches the score calls for.

Don't get me wrong. This still is a very fine M9th and Karajan's best commercial Mahler outing.

John,

[barry guerrero]

Sure John, there are details that could be better. But that's the point for me: they're details! Look, if I listened to the 9th as much as I listen to many of the other Mahler symphonies, I would probably fuss over details more myself. But the 9th truly is a "special occasion" piece for me - I just can't listen to it every week! The Karajan one makes me feel like I did, in fact, just listen to a special occasion.

You mentioned the Levine. Unless you get the Oehms one (Munich Phil.), you have to get the Philly one on a Japanese pressing (because the domestic one sounded like doo-doo!). It's also just a tad too slow and ponderous for me - and I say that as someone who truly loves Philly.

Bernstein: come on, you know that the two commercial ones aren't nearly as good as the BSO one from Tangelwood. I'll agree, the Tangelwood one is probably top dog of the entire heap. But it's still a burn job! I like to discuss things that somebody can walk into any record store for - where they still exist - and just walk out with (after paying, of course).

If I were to plop on an M9 every other day, I'd probably make it the Barenboim. I like things on a single disc!

[bluesbreaker]

"Karajan's m9 sounds too much like............hmmmmm......., Karajan"

Yeah, but see; the reason I like his M9 so much, is that it DOESN'T sound like the usual Karajan, such as when he's doing Bruckner, for example (I do like his VPO B8). Let me explain: Karajan used to say that every piece of music has only one true climax. But he didn't conduct his Bruckner that way. For the most part, it was just a series of huge, overriding climaxes - one after another. Karajan conducted Bruckner with the same sort of enthusiasm that Bernstein nearly always applied to Mahler. But Karajan's Mahler 9 isn't like that. The third climax is, indeed, THE main climax of the first movement. And Karajan truly nails the climax of the fourth movement Adagio, which many people fail to do. He succeeded in making the two big climaxes in the two outer movements, truly the major climaxes of the work (and actually, the first movement climax is an "anti"-climax). As a result, it gives the work - as Todd mentioned - an overriding sense of line. Anyway, I like it.

Barry

I know what you mean. The reason I said what I said was that I really don't like HVK's treatment of M9. The Adagio is great, but the rest just sounds wrong to me. Beautiful yes, but kinda stiff. The Burleske just lacks edge.

[akiralx]

Sure John, there are details that could be better. But that's the point for me: they're details! Look, if I listened to the 9th as much as I listen to many of the other Mahler symphonies, I would probably fuss over details more myself. But the 9th truly is a "special occasion" piece for me - I just can't listen to it every week! The Karajan one makes me feel like I did, in fact, just listen to a special occasion.

The live Tokyo MSO/Bertini M9 recording is a similar 'occasion' recording for me, though I do like the Karajan as well. 

But like you I would normally prefer the Bruckner 9 (most recently the excellent Saarbruckner RSO/Wakasugi recording on Arte Nova, nearly as good as his brilliant B2 on the same label).

[waderice]

One thing I notice here is that no one has made comment that there were TWO Mahler 9th's by Karajan.  The "live" performance was an early digital one that followed Karajan's analog studio recording, made in 1977, I believe.  I think the earlier one is the better of the two.  If any of you were lucky enough to be into prerecorded reel tapes as I am/was, the analog Karajan 9th was available on Barclay-Crocker.

[barry guerrero]

Actually, Waderice, John Kim has discussed that one numerous times. It would mean having to dig around the archives, of course. I don't know; I prefer the live one. But, they're fairly different.

[chalkpie]

Yeah, I'm late to the party but I just got this. I'll report back when spinnage has occured. I am basically a "Don't-generally-give-a-shit-fan" of Herbie, but I did enjoy his M4, and since Barry and Hurwitz are so pumped for this recording, I'm expecting some magic....

[John Kim]

"Intensely smooth and smoothly intense with many Mahlerian edges smoothed out" was my verdict on the Karajan. In the first movt. the playing isn't all that great but things start to improve from the second movt. on. The Finale is very intense but beautiful.

If you like Karajan's way with M9th, search for his another go at the symphony, a live concert from another Salzburg Festival.

John,

[John Kim]

To me (and many others), the biggest issue with Karajan's Mahler is that he didn't delineate many polyphonic lines clearly enough. Take a listen to his M5th and M9th and you'll see what I mean. For Karajan, well blended and homogenized sound was everything that mattered to him. Unfortunately, Mahler's music requires a conductor who can see all the trees in the forest as well as the forest itself.

The M4th is lightly and rather thinly orchestrated, so Karajan's conducting worked rather well for that symphony.

John,