Author Topic: Martinon live in M3?  (Read 17761 times)

Offline Karafan

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Martinon live in M3?
« on: July 18, 2009, 04:12:53 PM »
I see an American Amazon reviewer listing a live Jean Martinon M3 as his all time favourite.

I can't say I know - or even know of - the recording.  Anyone kindly shed some light please?  Worth having?  Still available?

Thanks

Karafan

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Martinon live in M3?
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2009, 05:26:33 PM »
It was in the first box that the CSO released through their store. That's the one that has the Reiner Prokofiev 5th, I believe. I have a burn job of the Martinon M3. While it's quite good, I certainly wouldn't put it at the top of my list. The performance is fairly fast, generally speaking, which isn't a bad thing for a symphony of that length. The mezzo isn't great at all. Of course, being the CSO, the brass section is the big deal. Guys like Bud Herseth, Arnold Jacobs, Frank Crissifulli (trombone), Kleinhammer (bass t-bone) Phil Farkus (horn) - they were all in their prime back then. Personally, I feel that their woodwinds were somewhat better back then too, but the brass still ruled the roost. The sound isn't the best, but it's good enough for being "live" from the early or mid '60s.

So, how can I put this in context? I think it's much better than the Leinsdorf/BSO M3 from roughly the same period (I think that one is hugely over-rated). I'm also not as big-a-fan of Lennie's first N.Y. M3 as some people are. The early Mahler 3 that I really like a lot is the first Haitink/Concertgebouw one. I think that's from about 1966. From a purely "interpretive" (conducting) standpoint, I certainly think the Martinon one is far, far better than the recent Haitink/CSO one. In my opinion, Haitink was much better at most everything earlier on in his career. The Levine/CSO M3 is definitely slower in the third, fourth, and sixth movements, but it's certainly much better recorded than the Martinon (it was recorded in Medinah Temple). Herseth (posthorn solos) was captured beautifully on the Levine M3 as well. He doesn't sound nearly so good on the Solti/CSO M3, for example.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2009, 12:38:27 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline Karafan

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Re: Martinon live in M3?
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2009, 09:04:09 PM »
Thank you for the very informative reply, Barry.

K.

Offline sperlsco

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Re: Martinon live in M3?
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2009, 10:02:03 PM »
...the Leinsdorf/BSO M3 from roughly the same period (I think that one is hugely over-rated).

Strange, the only review I've seen of the Leinsdorf one is on Classics Today -- and the reviewer trashed it!!  ;)

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=539
Scott

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Martinon live in M3?
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2009, 12:41:34 AM »
Hey, I was reading this and thinking, "gee, what a well written review; I don't remember Dave or Victor reviewing this". Then I discovered it was I who wrote the review. Way to go Barry!

Barry
« Last Edit: July 21, 2009, 12:53:48 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline david johnson

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Re: Martinon live in M3?
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2009, 07:20:58 AM »
the leinsdorf/bso m3 is not worthy of a trash.  it's good, just not the best.

dj

Offline Eric Nagamine

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Re: Martinon live in M3?
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2009, 08:31:16 AM »
It was in the first box that the CSO released through their store. That's the one that has the Reiner Prokofiev 5th, I believe. I have a burn job of the Martinon M3. While it's quite good, I certainly wouldn't put it at the top of my list. The performance is fairly fast, generally speaking, which isn't a bad thing for a symphony of that length. The mezzo isn't great at all. Of course, being the CSO, the brass section is the big deal. Guys like Bud Herseth, Arnold Jacobs, Frank Crissifulli (trombone), Kleinhammer (bass t-bone) Phil Farkus (horn) - they were all in their prime back then. Personally, I feel that their woodwinds were somewhat better back then too, but the brass still ruled the roost. The sound isn't the best, but it's good enough for being "live" from the early or mid '60s.

The Martinon M3 is from the 2nd big box (Chicago Symphony Orchestra in the Twentieth Century: Collector's Choice). The Prokofiev in this set the 3rd symphony conducted by Kondrashin.  By the time the Martinon performed M3, Phil Farkas was long gone from the CSO. Dale Clevenger would have been principal horn by '67 when these concerts were performed. The principal t-bone solos were by Jay Friedman.  The recording issued by the CSO was cobbled together by the late Norm Pellegrini of WFMT from recordings of the concerts (which where the 1st in CSO history). There also exists out in bootleg space an unedited recording of one of the performances that was the basis of the CSO issue.
------------
Eric Nagamine

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Martinon live in M3?
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2009, 06:34:51 PM »
David,

I don't feel that the Leinsdorf M3 is "good" even. But more to the point, I think that I was fairly objective in pointing out what I felt to be deficient about it. That's why I was unwittingly admiring my own writing; not because I was agreeing with the author (who was me).

Barry

Offline david johnson

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Re: Martinon live in M3?
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2009, 11:32:12 PM »
David,

I don't feel that the Leinsdorf M3 is "good" even. But more to the point, I think that I was fairly objective in pointing out what I felt to be deficient about it. That's why I was unwittingly admiring my own writing; not because I was agreeing with the author (who was me).

Barry

i still do not agree w/you.  it's certainly not my first pick for a #3, but it is indeed good.  the opening horns are fine and the posthorn (trumpet - ghitalla?) is lovely.

dj

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Martinon live in M3?
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2009, 04:59:56 AM »
Well, I don't think it's a question of who's right or wrong. Any two people can disagree vehemently (no pun intended) on these kinds of issues. But I just do not have good memories of schlogging my way through Leinsdof's M3. The problem, as far as I can remember, greatly has to do with pacing and tempo relationships. I remember the "bim-bam" chorale movement just being flat as pancake. It really needs to be alive, providing great contrast to the two slow movements that surround it.

Let me put it this way: if the Leinsdorf were the only M3 recording in existence, I guess I'd be somewhat grateful for it. But that's hardly the case. Among '60s vintage recordings, I really think that the Bernstein and Haitink ones are far stronger. Although it's sort of a fast run-through, I even like the Kubelik better. The start of this thread was about the Martinon/CSO M3, which I feel is also better from start to finish. I certainly think that Leinsdorf's M3 isn't anywhere as good as the hugely underrated Ozawa/BSO one, regardless of the reputation of those conductors. I guess I would like better than either of Solti's two M3 recordings, but that's truly not saying much. Sorry, man. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Offline alpsman

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Re: Martinon live in M3?
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2009, 11:01:48 PM »
Martinon's M3 is exceptional in one certain way. It's the first performance CSO gave of this symphony. As for the performanse itself it is amazing the sense of discover and joy the players put on it. It is rather straight and not so mature as the myriads others that came all these years, so of course it's not a first choise or one for a short list-the sound is not audiophile, it's difficult to find the cd.
But listen to the great climax of the first movement-around 11min.- and hear the brass roaring like in only a few of other recordings.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Martinon live in M3?
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2009, 05:24:03 PM »
"It's the first performance CSO gave of this symphony"

That's surprising. Then again, I don't think that Frederick Stock did much Mahler - if any. Reiner certainly didn't do the third, so that would leave Kubelik, I suppose. Apparently he didn't do much Mahler in Chicago either. Oh well.

Offline mike bosworth

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Re: Martinon live in M3?
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2009, 02:58:12 PM »
I don't think that Frederick Stock did much Mahler - if any...

Frederick Stock conducted the American premiere of M7 in Chicago on 15 April 1921.  In Appendix 3Ad of HLG IV the text goes on to state: "Between 1913 and 1937 he programmed Mahler's Fifth, Eighth, Das Lied, and the Gesellen Lieder, and the First, Fourth, and Seventh Symphonies can even be found in three different seasons each."

Mike Bosworth

Offline sperlsco

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Re: Martinon live in M3?
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2009, 05:21:55 PM »
I don't think that Frederick Stock did much Mahler - if any...

Frederick Stock conducted the American premiere of M7 in Chicago on 15 April 1921.  In Appendix 3Ad of HLG IV the text goes on to state: "Between 1913 and 1937 he programmed Mahler's Fifth, Eighth, Das Lied, and the Gesellen Lieder, and the First, Fourth, and Seventh Symphonies can even be found in three different seasons each."

Mike Bosworth

Yes, but if you don't count those...

 ;D ;D ;D
Scott

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Martinon live in M3?
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2009, 07:20:21 PM »
Oh, well - happy to be wrong.

 

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