MTT/SFSO/SFSO M8th - my first impression

[John Kim]

Well, this is really well played, sung, and recorded M8th.

I'd say in recent years I've never heard a M8 that is sung this well - the soloists are all uniformly excellent as are the choruses. SFSO plays the music with smooth but burnished intensity following all of MTT's often challenging instructions. As I suspected, MTT adopts a rather swift tempo in Part I. with a brazingly fast ending. The overall effect is exciting but it is peppered with occasional retardando, eg, "Veni, Ve~~~~Ni Creator ..." at the start of the recapitulation. This stretching of "Ve" is strange and weird because MTT restores the previous tempo immediately following this. Elsewhere, he also employs a few pauses, not all of which are at good spots; there is one near the end of Part II. where the music needs to move forward with a maximum momentum and an uninterrupted flow. He also does another ritardando towards the end of the choral part (where Schwarz accelerated on the contrary).

Part II is slow, as in Boulez and Nagano. But it's not as dragging and the final pages cap up power and catalysis as all good performance of M8th should. Yes, the final orchestral part is all drawn-out out with every detail well caught.

The recording quality raises a concern - although it captures lots of details and is very bright, to my ears the balance & dynamic range shift frequently, and it sounds somewhat claustrophobic without much ambiance. Listen to the very ending of Part I. Its power trails off quickly because there isn't much ambiance that is needed to sustain the tension in both space and time.

All in all, a very nice addition to MTT's Mahler cycle, but I'd prefer Schwarz/Seattle Symphony recording over this one. Although the singing is not on a par with MTT's, the Seattle recording has better tempos, flows more naturally, and is blessed with a conducting that shows much musicality that is sometimes lacking in the MTT's edition.

That's all. I'll need to listen again for a more accurate review.

John,

[barry guerrero]

John,

For once, you and I see eye to eye. The playing and the singing are, for the most part, truly top rate. The sound is excellent during softer parts. But I agree that something sounds rather compressed at the ending of both parts (Part I's ending is awfully fast, too). Worse yet, there's very little organ at the ending of both parts.

This isn't a matter of interpretation, as Mahler very clearly calls for the organ to sound fortissimo, with the added words "volles werke" (the complete works). I just don't understand this type of intervention, as it just doesn't sound good to have 400 people shouting, "All things transitory are only a parable" without a fat cushion of organ sound to ride on.

Further more, MTT's insistance on putting a personal stamp on his recent Mahler performances reaches its zenith with this new 8th. He simply refuses to allows Mahler's incredibly "organic" process of Part II to speak for itself. Massive ritardandos and unsolicited breaks only promise that we're in for one heck of a big ending to his 8th. (one break is a full five seconds long!). Unfortunately, without the organ, that ending simply doesn't deliver the goods (tam-tam is audible, but not overwhelming). Too bad, because there's much else that's excellent to this performance.

So here's how I'd rate this:

Chorus work: A

Orch. execution: A

Solists: B+ (the women are better than the men)

sound quality: B+

Conducting: C-

Organ: F

Mandolin: A-  

I wish I could say that this new MTT/SFSO M8 simply sweeps the board. Unfortunately, it just doesn't. While I guess I like it better than the recent Boulez M8, I certainly don't like it more than Gergiev, Schwarz, De Waart; Bertini; Bernstein 1969; Inbal; Tennstadt; Rattle (on the audio DVD disc)   .   .  and the list goes on and on.    

[John Kim]

Ditto, Barry.

Listen everyone.

Just try singing, "Veni , Ve~~~~~~Ni, Creator".
                       (1111  1111           1     11)
 
You figure, don't you?

John,

[drfluid]

Thanks for the great reviews.

The sound of organ was very clearly heard in the concert hall last year and sounded with perfect balance with other instruments/voices.
I'll be interesting to find out how the recording sounds on CD.

[sperlsco]

Thanks for the great reviews.

The sound of organ was very clearly heard in the concert hall last year and sounded with perfect balance with other instruments/voices.
I'll be interesting to find out how the recording sounds on CD.

Maybe the recording engineers took a page from the recent LSO M8 and placed much of the organ sound in the rear speakers?  Is anyone listening in multi-channel? 

John:  Did you spend the extra money and order it from the SFSO site? 

[Russell]

Well, that's kinda too bad about the sound quality.  (Did you guys get early copies?  It's not supposed to be released for another week.)  Reports I've read from people who attended the concerts said that it was very LOUD and overpowering.  Sounds like the engineers may have dampened it down somewhat.  (Frankly, I've never cared for the sound quality of the SFS Mahler recordings--in 2-channel SACD mode, BTW--as I generally find them overbright and edgy.)  I'll still reserve judgment until I get my own copy, though.  A good friend of mine has a super megabuck multichannel system, and I might want to try it out there as well.  (I heard the ending of the Gergiev M8 on his system and it was quite the experience!)

Russell

[John Kim]

Make no mistake. The sound quality is, for most part, pretty impressive and as good as all the previous MTT/Mahler releases have been. It's just that at some spots the balance shifts and the dynamic range suddenly pops up. Like Barry said, the soft passages sound great but the loud parts don't always sound that good. BTW, my judgement is based on hearing the discs on 2 channel stereo regular CD player. I might give you a different story upon hearing in multi-channel SACD format.

That said, here is my overall rating:

8/8

John,

[barry guerrero]

No, I don't have multi-channel playback capabilities, so we really should wait to get feedback from Scott and Russell. I just have a hunch that they did a separate "studio" take for the ending. It just sounds too clean and tidy, and the offstage trumpets sound a bit too close at the end of Part II (fine at the end of Part I).

As far as MTT's conducting goes, the worst offense happens after the tenor's first big solo in Part II. Just before the passage for soft violions, chamber organ (harmonium), and harps (later to be joined by the chorus), MTT puts in a pause that lasts a full five seconds. Then he takes this passage so slowly - and played so softly - that it's difficult to recognize that this is one of the major melodies of the entire symphony. Each harp "pluck" sounds like a symphony on to itself. Hey, are we listening to Gustav Mahler, or Anton Webern?

Barry

[Leo K]

Thanks John and Barry for the early impressions.  This sounds like my cup of tea, as I rather like MTT's Mahler and his cycle is getting near the top of my list with every listen to it.  Glad the hear the recorded sound has detail at least...perhaps the SACD layer brings out the space more as on the other releases in the cycle. 

I'm tempted to get the iTunes before the actual release, but the download is two expensive...so I shouldn't!


--Todd

[barry guerrero]

Ok, Leo, I do hope you like it. I really don't wish any bad luck to the SFSO, even if everyone here is completely diluted over the alleged greatness of Michael Tilson Thomas. The Mahler 8th he gave here in 1998 (his first one) was terrific. It was a lot like the Bertini. By that, I mean that everything was perfectly straight forward, and the ending to Part II was tremendous. Then I saw him do it again in 2001, and it wasn't nearly so good. He started playing around with the work already - intervening where it wasn't necessary to intervene. I missed his third go-around, which was the one that was initially going to be recorded for posterity. Everyone said that that one wasn't particularly great, partly because of alleged deficiencies with the cast of soloists. Frankly, I'm glad that I missed this last and final go-around, because I probably would have been driven mad by these massive ritardandos (slow downs) and gratuitous, completely unsolicited pauses. But for gott-im-himmel sake, please just give me something that at least approaches fortissimo with the organ. What's with this trend of ignoring the dynamic markings for the organ anyhow?

[Leo K]

Thanks for the thoughts Barry.  I'm hoping we will hear a report of the SACD layer soon...hopefully, I pray even, that the organ will have more presence in 5.1 sound at least, and maybe the stereo SACD layer. 

At least the singers are pretty good, based on your reports so far!

--Todd

[John Kim]

I must admit MTT's M8th grows on me. Although I criticized MTT's occasional ritardando and pauses, there are very few of them and they do not diminish the overall excellence of this recording. As for the sonic quality, it has firm bass and all the climaxes surge with great power and presence. The playing is as perfect as one can imagine. Ditto the singing.

Along with M1, M2, M4 and M9, this is one of MTT's best recordings in the series.

So, I will upgrade it to 9/9.

[barry guerrero]

I have the opposite feeling with repeated listening. Yes, the playing and the singing are top rate. But I simply can't forgive M2 & M8 recordings that are so deficient with the pipe organ. Furthermore, for me, MTT's excessive ritardandos and unsolicited breaks - remember, one of them is nearly five seconds long!! - simply get in the way of my enjoyment. I don't think that I'll even be keeping this one. Frankly, I even like the first Tennstedt M8 better than this one. It's also reasonably well sung, and there's tons of pipe organ (which I like!). Also, unlike his '80's remake on DVD, Tennstedt's conducting was much more straight forward on this earlier one. I wish we could have that option with MTT: 1998 vs. 2008

Barry

[barry guerrero]

I'm going to ramble on here a bit. You know, I've said some fairly uncomplimentary things about the Nagano M8. But I would take that one over the MTT as well. Nagano's ending to Part I is outstanding, where as MTT's is an excessively fast, jumbled mess. Nagano has too little tension - lack of fire, really - during the two, loud orchestral passages near the start of Part II. But at least his Part II truly leads to something. And while I'm not crazy about the more "French" registration of his pipe organ (I'm getting into territory that's outside of my schtick), at least there's a fair amount of organ there. I also like the rather long and mushy sounding last note at the end of  his performance. I don't like sharp cut-offs on the very last note. MTT holds the final chord a bit too short for my liking, and then finishes off with a very sharp cut-off on the last note. Nagano easily has as much tam-tam as MTT does also.

B.

[John Kim]

Barry,

I certainly share your feeling about the MTT . It is the playing, singing, and some of the sound quality - strong bass - that I like in this recording. I'd still pick the Schwarz over the MTT but I think it is definitely worth listening.

Regards,

John,