Nott/Bamberger Symphony Orch./Tudor M9th - my first impression

[etucker82]

Nott's Mahler 9 didn't do much for me either.  Mostly a squeaky clean performance that often seems totally unaware of that this piece needs the conductor to provide any more contrast than a baroque concerto grosso.  A shame since I remember a Proms broadcast of this combo as being one of the finest Mahler 4's I've ever heard.  Nott is an extremely promising conductor, but at this point he's definitely more comfortable with irony than earnestness (I expect big things from his 6 and especially his 7).  The highlight of his M9 is a fast and rather nasty third movement, which here sounds almost like Prokofiev.  But everything else sounds like it comes from the hands of somebody who's out of his depth.  I'd be interested in hearing a remake in 20 years, perhaps by then his outlook will mature.   

[John Kim]

.....

I'd recommend that next time you listen you turn the volume up, way up and play it in the SACD format.

I bet if you don't like the Nott you didn't warm up to the Chailly's SACD recording with RCO either (I find them very similar in every aspect). I figure this type of reading and interpretation may not be your cup of tea and I certainly understand that .

John,

[etucker82]

I actually liked Chailly's recording very much.  I think it was ultimately it came down to the difference in quality between the two orchestras (always a tough call).  The Bamberg did a good professional job, but the Concertgebouw sounds like the greatest Mahler band in the world, and just about every phrase is weighted with the level of character that implies.  My guess is that Chailly simply had the good sense to let them do their thing.  I don't think Riccardo Chailly is the best at 'plumming the depths' as they say, but he is very good at presenting music both intelligently and dramatically.  His ninth was a highlight in what I thought was a very strong cycle. 

...As a show of good faith I'm re-listening to Nott right now .  Perhaps it's a morning Mahler 9 rather than a night Mahler 9.  I think, as I did the first time I heard it, that it has moments when the piece's drama comes through quite clearly, maybe more than I at first realized.  But it does so inconsistently at best.  Mahler 9 is a piece that has to be 'lived' more than interpreted.  Mahler did not live to put in his usual revisions, so a conductor must, to at least some extent, personalize the piece so that he can attempt to do Mahler's unfinished work. This is an interpretation that sounds too dutiful and reverential to make it work for me. 

I'm very much looking forward to Abbado's Lucerne performances of this piece.   

[John Kim]

Alright, fair enough.

So, which ones are your favorite M9ths??

Give me three to four for your list.

John,

[etucker82]

You may recall that I posted this about Haitink doing Mahler 9 on March 4th.....

"I can certainly sympathize with that feeling, as that's exactly how I feel about Haitink in other pieces.  And I must concede, parts of that performance were magnificent.  But I didn't feel as though that weight could be sustained all the way through the performance because Haitink seems to have a resolute refusal to inflect the piece.  In certain Mahler pieces in which the form is more severely constructed (particularly the 4th and 6th) this somewhat extremist non-intervention will not matter as much - at least not for me.  I really like Haitink's latest M4 and M6, mixed reviews or not.  But I suppose for Mahler 9 I either like it uptempo or flexible, my favorites at this point are Abbado, Bernstein, Barbirolli, Kubelik and yes, Bruno Walter.  (...though I make an exception for Riccardo Chailly)."

Not the most original list, but I can't claim I've listened too exhaustively to the M9 discography.  In greater detail, I prefer Bernstein's recordings with New York and the Concertgebouw to Berlin and Vienna.  Abbado with Berlin strikes me as a stunningly visceral performance that immediately went straight to the top of my list, I haven't heard his Vienna recording.  Barbirolli is a particular favorite of mine, the warmth of the phrasing and the elasticity bring to mind not only Furtwangler in Berlin but moreso...Bruno Walter in Vienna.  And I make no apologies for thinking Walter/Vienna a magnificent recording (magnificence being very different from perfection).  As for Rafael Kubelik, he's one of my all-time favorite conductors.  I haven't heard the studio recording since college, but the Audite is wonderful in parts, though I'm not entirely sure it adds up. 

As for the other sacred cows: I'm not at all keen on Karajan in Mahler 9 (Mahler 5 is another story), nor is Klemperer one I'm particularly inclined toward in this piece.  It's likewise been since college that I've heard Haitink.  I remember being impressed without quite being moved.  I've only listened to the first movement of Rattle/Berlin and felt disappointed.  Walter's second go is feeble, as is much (though certainly not all) of his late-period CBS work.  Boulez is quite far from my favorite Mahler conductor generally, and M9 wasn't Gielen's finest hour.  I still haven't heard Giulini, but I'm not huge on him anyway.  Never heard Levine, but I love his Philly M5 so I'm very curious about his first go.  Would like to hear the Szell recording, though I think his M4 is a bit overrated.

The three conductors I'm most looking forward to hearing soon are Abbado when he conducts in Lucerne, MTT/SFS when I figure out a way to get it (without paying), and the inevitable Fischer recording that I hope will blow me out of the water.  Zinman I'll listen to sentimentally, as I heard him conduct it in Baltimore when I was 11.  And I suppose I'm also very curious to hear what Barenboim made out of it, even if it turns out badly. 

Lastly, a good word for a sleeper.  Barshai's Moscow Radio recording for BIS.  Not my pick for the greatest performance (though you could do far worse), but quite an interpretation.  Barshai is the Charles Mackerras of Europe's other edge, and continues to be scandalously underrated as he approaches his late 80's.

[John Kim]

Lastly, a good word for a sleeper.  Barshai's Moscow Radio recording for BIS.  Not my pick for the greatest performance (though you could do far worse), but quite an interpretation.  Barshai is the Charles Mackerras of Europe's other edge, and continues to be scandalously underrated as he approaches his late 80's.

I have the Barsahi but am hardly impressed with it. Murky sound and stiff playing. What's so special about it?

[etucker82]

Two things:

Tempo: Barshai is the only conductor in my recollection who is in agreement with me about the basic tempos.  Conductors don't have to interpret the score the way I do, but it's always nice when they do:).  The first movement is marked Andante, yet all-too-often played at an Adagio pace.  In the second movement tempo is less of a concern, but more on that in a moment.  The third movement tempo concerns are much more problematic.  Mahler marks Allegro Assai but also marks cut time.  So does the tempo refer to the half-note or the quarter?  I think it refers to the quarter because there's no way we'd hear all the very carefully constructed counterpoint (and we don't in the speed at which its usually played).  If it were up to me, I'd take it even slower (god bless Klemperer, I don't much care for a lot of things in his M9 but he got the speed of the Rondo-Burleske exactly right).The last movement is marked Molto Adagio, but once again, the score is tricky.  It's marked in 4/4 and ought to feel as though it's in 4: each chord in those chorales is assigned only a quarter-note value.   If Mahler wanted a thirty minute finale, he'd have marked Largo or assigned each chord a half-note.  I think he was going for something much more flowing than we usually hear. 

Orchestral Playing: I'd hardly call the playing stiff, provincial maybe, but for me it works extremely well.  The playing is not the most technically consistent by objective standards but it certainly has more personality than the somewhat faceless orchestral prestige projects we're often subjected to.  The Russian strings tear into the piece with relish, and I suppose needless to say, so do the brass and percussion (though not on the Svetlanov level).  To take one passage to show what's right about the playing here: follow along between rehearsals 13 and 15 of the first movement.  Barshai gauges the buildup in speed almost perfectly (I'd have preferred he exaggerate it a bit more).  Meanwhile, look at all those accompanying string figurations.  There is no way that even the New York or Berlin Philharmonic strings could make every one of those notes sound clearly.  But I think it would be pointless to try: the very point is those figures is to make them sound sound chaotic, more like physical exhortations than intelligible speech.  Nothing will fail this piece more than an orchestra too self-conscious to sacrifice beautiful sound here for the required timbre.  The string section here tears into it like banshees released from hellfire.  Furthermore, this is personal taste but I think Russian brass works extremely well in Mahler, intonation problems and all.  None of this means that quality of execution should consciously be sacrificed, but a dirt for personality is one I'll willingly make every time.

Again, it's not even in my top five.  But I still think it's a damn good performance. 

[John Kim]

I've finished listening to the Barsahi recording and generally agree that it is not a performance in the minor league. The strings sound big, lush and heartfelt. The brass isn't bad at all either. My only quibble is that Barshai didn't take more chances with the first movt., the cornerstone of all symphonic movements. The sonics are beautiful and realistic.

Thanks for reminding me of this recording.

John,

[Leo K]

I have been led to return to the Nott M9 many times the last few weeks...I keep being drawn to it's excellant sonics and complex performance, full of power and patience, warmth and fire, humor and anger.  This M9 is inching towards the top of my favorites. 

--Todd

[BeethovensQuill]

I have been led to return to the Nott M9 many times the last few weeks...I keep being drawn to it's excellant sonics and complex performance, full of power and patience, warmth and fire, humor and anger.  This M9 is inching towards the top of my favorites. 

--Todd

That is how i feel about is aswell for me it is my favourite 9th.

[John Kim]

I have been led to return to the Nott M9 many times the last few weeks...I keep being drawn to it's excellant sonics and complex performance, full of power and patience, warmth and fire, humor and anger.  This M9 is inching towards the top of my favorites. 

--Todd

That is how i feel about is aswell for me it is my favourite 9th.

I am NOTT again!

John,