Author Topic: Karajan and Mahler  (Read 24728 times)

Wunderhorn

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Karajan and Mahler
« on: February 22, 2007, 08:37:01 AM »
I just got the Karajan Gold M9 a couple days ago and have listened to it twice already. If I was going to say anything negative about this recording it would be foolish considering it is quite good for a live performance. I'm more curious about how Karajan felt about Mahler. I know in his early youth he was a Nazi, but holding this over his head would be wrong, because after all he was young and it was synonymous to patriotism, however cruelly stupid it was. Karajan, in my mind, was a international conductor because he not only conducted Austro-Germanic composers like so many of his German peers, but many foreign favorites he squeezed into his baton. If anyone is aware of Karajan public views on Mahler it would help me reason how seriously I should take this M9 I know own.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2007, 08:53:05 AM »
Actions always speak louder than words. You should take Karajan's M9 quite seriously. In my view, Karajan was no more a nazi than Furtwaengler - not that two wrongs ever make a right. That said, Furtwaengler did go some distance to protect Jewish players in Berlin. It's questionable if the young Karajan would have attempted such a feat. But in general, Karajan was quite serious about Mahler. He put a tremendous amount of rehearsal time into the 5th symphony, before making his DG recording of it. He wanted to get it right. I was once told the following story   .    .   

A music critic once asked Karajan when he would tackle Mahler's 3rd symphony. Allegedly, Karajan replied, "when we get good enough".

Manish

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Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2007, 02:16:26 PM »
This is kind of off topic, but I once heard a story that one day Karajan got into a cab, and the driver asked him, "where do you want to go".  Karajan responded "I am Herbert van Karajan, I am wanted everywhere".

I like his Mahler recordings, as they feature some really good crisp playing.  I wouldn't say that any of them are my favorites though. 

Offline akiralx

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Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2007, 03:25:40 PM »
Actions always speak louder than words. You should take Karajan's M9 quite seriously. In my view, Karajan was no more a nazi than Furtwaengler

...or Richard Strauss who held an official Nazi position, or Karl Boehm.  In fact even Ernest Ansermet conducted in occupied territories when he didn't have to, but no-one ever has a word to say against him.  The problem for Karajan was that he looked like central casting's ideal Nazi while Furtwangler and Ansermet just looked like befuddled professors.

I like Karajan's M9 very much, though his best one is the M6 IMHO.  The only one I don't like is the M4.

Karajan was a lot more interested in modern music (for his time) than he was often given credit for.

Offline sperlsco

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Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2007, 04:07:35 PM »
Let's please try to keep any political discussions to a minmum.  Nobody has come anywhere near to crossing a line in this thread yet, but I can just see this subject taking off in the wrong direction. 

Thanks!
Scott

BorisG

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Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2007, 04:50:33 PM »
I just got the Karajan Gold M9 a couple days ago and have listened to it twice already. If I was going to say anything negative about this recording it would be foolish considering it is quite good for a live performance. I'm more curious about how Karajan felt about Mahler. I know in his early youth he was a Nazi, but holding this over his head would be wrong, because after all he was young and it was synonymous to patriotism, however cruelly stupid it was. Karajan, in my mind, was a international conductor because he not only conducted Austro-Germanic composers like so many of his German peers, but many foreign favorites he squeezed into his baton. If anyone is aware of Karajan public views on Mahler it would help me reason how seriously I should take this M9 I know own.

I only like his way with Mahler 9, and the earlier studio, which I think is better played and better recorded. It is amongst my handful of favorite 9s.

I don't think he imagined the other Mahlers well. They tend to sag and lose appeal early on.

Offline John Kim

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Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2007, 10:19:44 PM »
I also like Karajan's earlier studio recording of M9th. But there are some serious mistakes in the playing, e.g., a woodwind entering a bar early in III. (DH found out about it). Also, the percussion and trombones are unusually weak and the final climax is not devastating enough in I. Otherwise, a very fine M9.

John,

Offline chris

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Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2007, 02:05:55 AM »
Actions always speak louder than words. You should take Karajan's M9 quite seriously. In my view, Karajan was no more a nazi than Furtwaengler - not that two wrongs ever make a right. That said, Furtwaengler did go some distance to protect Jewish players in Berlin. It's questionable if the young Karajan would have attempted such a feat. But in general, Karajan was quite serious about Mahler. He put a tremendous amount of rehearsal time into the 5th symphony, before making his DG recording of it. He wanted to get it right. I was once told the following story   .    .   

A music critic once asked Karajan when he would tackle Mahler's 3rd symphony. Allegedly, Karajan replied, "when we get good enough".

I have dreams that some day recordings of Furtwangler conducting Mahler will someday pop up....the Lieder recording is fine, but Willy doing M2?   A man can dream.

DennisW

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Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2007, 03:40:41 AM »
Anyone interested in the politics of music, and conductors especially, should read The Twisted Muse: Musicians and their Music in the Third Reich by Michael H. Katter. Fascinating stuff.

In light of the moderator's request, I won't go into great detail, but I must note that to say "Karajan was no more a Nazi than Furtwangler" neglects the fact that Karajan was an actual party member (whether out of a genuine "youthful" commitment or whether it was just a career move remains a somewhat muddled issue) while Furtwangler wasn't a party member. Thus, Karajan was actually more Nazi than Furtwangler, at least nominally.

Both eventually fell out of favor with the Nazis for various reasons, much as Strauss did. Furtwangler was always essentially opposed to Nazism, though he was criticised for not emigrating and continuing to work in Germany, thus seeming to legitimize Nazi rule, but he helped many Jewish members of the BPO, as well as Jewish composers such as Hindemith and Pfitzner. Karajan married a woman who was part-Jewish and thus fell afoul of the Nuremburg race laws, and Strauss resisted attempts to force him to stop working with Stefan Zweig on an opera libretto.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2007, 08:01:44 AM »
Well, the original question was whether "Wunderhorn" should take Karajan's M9 seriously or not. I would say most definitely yes. It's easy for people to poo-pooh Karajan now, but in 1981, that live recording of the 9th was considered to be pretty hot stuff.

Barry

BorisG

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Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2007, 08:03:20 AM »
I also like Karajan's earlier studio recording of M9th. But there are some serious mistakes in the playing, e.g., a woodwind entering a bar early in III. (DH found out about it). Also, the percussion and trombones are unusually weak and the final climax is not devastating enough in I. Otherwise, a very fine M9.

John,

You have some other symphony, recording, and conductor in mind. Thanks anyway.

Offline John Kim

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Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2007, 05:29:03 PM »
I also like Karajan's earlier studio recording of M9th. But there are some serious mistakes in the playing, e.g., a woodwind entering a bar early in III. (DH found out about it). Also, the percussion and trombones are unusually weak and the final climax is not devastating enough in I. Otherwise, a very fine M9.

John,

You have some other symphony, recording, and conductor in mind. Thanks anyway.

BorisG

What do you mean?? I was talking about Karajan/BPO/DG M9th studio recording made circa 1980. If you don't believe me, bring a score and take a close attention to III. (it happens about mid way through the movt, before the brass choral). It's pretty easy to spot without the score but AB comparison will certainly help reveal the flaw. It is a "spectacular" (as David put it) flaw at that.

John,

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2007, 06:47:52 AM »
I" have dreams that some day recordings of Furtwangler conducting Mahler will someday pop up....the Lieder recording is fine, but Willy doing M2?   A man can dream. "

Oh please, Chris. It's better that it be left a dream. Have you ever heard Furtwaengler's recording of Hindemith's "Harmonie der Welt" symphony? It's an absolute disaster - a musical and sonic train wreck. You would think that it must be the most complicated piece of music ever written. Yet, when you hear a modern recording of it - Blomstedt, for instance - it sounds far less complicated than some of Richard Strauss' biggest works. I've heard absolutely nothing by Furtwaengler that would suggest to me that he'd have any affinity with Mahler's biggest works.

First off, an M2 with Furtwaengler would have been recorded in some shoe box hall with an incredibly undersized, wheezy sounding organ - just like the one in the Musikverein. Second, he simply would not have been fastidious enough to weed out counting mistakes and repeated wrong notes, etc.  Third, his somewhat vague conducting style wouldn't have worked in a piece that requires such a high level of attention to precise timing as M2 does. The only way an M2 with Furtwaengler would have worked as a recording is if, A.); he really, REALLY wanted to do it and, B.); they gave him lots and lots of rehearsal time with Walter Legge's Philharmonia Orchestra - the best orchestra on that side of the Atlantic puddle in those post-war days.  That being the case, why not put on Klemperer - who was no slouch in Mahler - and be done with it?  Better yet, get Klemeperer's "live" BRSO one with Janet Baker on EMI. That one captures much of the live magic that one would associate with Furtwaengler at his best - all in great stereo, and with plenty of attention to precise timing and orchestral accuracy. In other words, you can have your cake and eat it too! Trust me, the mystique of Furtwaengler is better when it's kept a dream.
 
 

Wunderhorn

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Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2007, 08:27:19 AM »
Mahler is too rough around the edges for Furtwaengler  :-\

Ivor

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Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2007, 12:14:08 PM »
     In my work,there are no 'shoulds'.

     Take Karajan (or anyone) the way you want to,the way your response is.

     it was interesting,in a recent BBC Building a Library (I forget the work under consideration),the reviewer describes Karajan's smoothness as suggesting something sinister.

     On the other hand,K was clearly a decent conductor,and,IMO,any such will have found something interesting to offer.

     See what you can find,p'raps.


   
        Ivor

 

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