Remastered Horenstein/LSO M3rd and a live Haitink/RCO M7th (1983)

[John Kim]

http://www.highdeftapetransfers.com/storefront.php

It's great news.

They also have a remastered Szell/CVLO M4th:

http://www.6moons.com/musicreviews/2009_april/mahler4.html

John,

[alpsman]

John (or anyone who knows),

have you heard any cd of the remasters from hdtt?
How is the sound? Is it worth for the price they ask?

[John Kim]

John (or anyone who knows),

have you heard any cd of the remasters from hdtt?
How is the sound? Is it worth for the price they ask?

No, and I was going to ask the same question.

But in the case of the Horenstein M3rd I'd take ANY degree of improvement. I was gravely disappointed with the sound quality of the Unicorn CD reissue.

Another question I have is, what's the source of the Haitink M7th they are going to remaster.

John,

[waderice]

The pages state that the source for the 24/96 CD transfer for the Horenstein M3 is a Unicorn 4-track tape and that the source of the Szell M4 is also a 4-track tape.  For those who already have these recordings on reel (I do), it won't be worth the extra money.  It will only benefit those who are without reel equipment.

Wade

[akiralx]

John (or anyone who knows),

have you heard any cd of the remasters from hdtt?
How is the sound? Is it worth for the price they ask?

No, and I was going to ask the same question.

But in the case of the Horenstein M3rd I'd take ANY degree of improvement. I was gravely disappointed with the sound quality of the Unicorn CD reissue.

Another question I have is, what's the source of the Haitink M7th they are going to remaster.

John,

I recall Barry and others saying the LSO M3 sounds much better in the Brilliant box cycle than in the standard old Unicorn CD set.

[James Meckley]

Quote from: akiraix on December 25, 2009, 03:56:09 AM
I recall Barry and others saying the LSO M3 sounds much better in the Brilliant box cycle than in the standard old Unicorn CD set.

*  *  *

I have both the Unicorn and the Brilliant Classics versions of the Horenstein/LSO Mahler 3. To me they sound exactly the same, and I've listened very carefully, hoping to hear an improvement. There is even precisely the same amount of time on lead-ins and lead-outs, meaning the timings for all movements are identical, as is the TT – almost never the case with a remastering. I'm convinced that Brilliant simply released the Unicorn mastering unaltered – pretty much what you'd expect from a super-budget label.

I wish Jerry Bruck (Posthorn Recordings, NYC) would be permitted to release the minimally-miked recording (probably Schoeps mics in ORTF configuration) he made during the original Unicorn recording sessions. Jerry is a master, and I'm sure his recording is revelatory.

James

[Leo K]

I wish Jerry Bruck (Posthorn Recordings, NYC) would be permitted to release the minimally-miked recording (probably Schoeps mics in ORTF configuration) he made during the original Unicorn recording sessions. Jerry is a master, and I'm sure his recording is revelatory.

James

That would be a dream come true for me too!  I'd much rather have Bruck's recording.


I no longer have the Unicorn CD since my vinyl copy sounds so much better in comparison.  I'm tempted by this new remastering though.

--Todd

[waderice]

I wish Jerry Bruck (Posthorn Recordings, NYC) would be permitted to release the minimally-miked recording (probably Schoeps mics in ORTF configuration) he made during the original Unicorn recording sessions. Jerry is a master, and I'm sure his recording is revelatory.

Even my Barclay-Crocker Unicorn 4-track reel tape recording seems to have spatial problems between mimimalist and close-in miking, which makes for a bit of an aural "mish-mash".  I didn't know that there was a minimalist recording made during the same sessions made by Jerry Bruck.  If anything, this would be the way to go for the 24/96 CD issue, and in this respect, I would be willing to make an additional investment in this legendary recording.  Do you have additional information on this (specifically, as to why this minimalist recording has never seen the light of day)?

Wade

[James Meckley]

Do you have additional information on this (specifically, as to why this minimalist recording has never seen the light of day)?

My understanding is that Jerry lacks the necessary releases and legal permissions required to permit a commercial release. Unicorn would surely have put severe restrictions on the future use of any such recording.

James

[John Kim]

Merry Xmas to you all!!

I confirmed that the 1983 Haitink/RCO M7th that they are going to release has never been released before. It's based on a reel tape someone recorded off air privately.

John,

[barry guerrero]

According to Tony Duggan, two separate sets of mikes were running at the Horenstein M3 sessions. The Brilliant Classics one is allegedly identical to the one that was issued on Nonesuch. To me, the Nonesuch and Brilliant Classics set sound far better - to my likes and dislikes - than the Unicorn one. Also too my ears, they don't sound even remotely alike. I vastly prefer both the Nonesuch and Brilliant Classics recordings. I've never liked the Unicorn one, but I'm perfectly willing to keep an open mind to these new remasterings.

Barry

[John Kim]

Merry Xmas to you all!!

I confirmed that the 1983 Haitink/RCO M7th that they are going to release has never been released before. It's based on a reel tape someone recorded off air privately.

John,

Correction.

This is NOT a private recording. It was made by PBS. I heard the CD will be based on the master tape made as such.

John,

[ctcdaggett]

Thanks for the correction, John.

Robert L. Berkman,
Mojave Desert CA.............and Merry Happy to All.

[Dyolf]

Hi.
I will almost bet anything, that the Unicorn and the Brilliant is NOT identical. My guess is that Brilliant must have had access to the tapes, and simply put on what was there, without ANY form of fiddeling. That would be cheap productionwise. The dynamics on the Brilliant issue is totally different from the Unicorn one. I will add that I have encountered this on several reissues from Brilliant Classics, and that I always play my licensed reissues, instead of the original ones.
Steen

[James Meckley]

To me, the Nonesuch and Brilliant Classics set sound far better - to my likes and dislikes - than the Unicorn one. Also too my ears, they don't sound even remotely alike. I vastly prefer both the Nonesuch and Brilliant Classics recordings. I've never liked the Unicorn one...
Barry

The dynamics on the Brilliant issue is totally different from the Unicorn one.
Steen

Then we seem to have a mystery on our hands. Over the weekend, I listened again to my two CD versions of the Horenstein/LSO M3 (Unicorn and Brilliant Classics) on sophisitcated, high-resolution audio gear, and heard not the slightest degree of difference. Spectral balance was the same, imaging was the same, and dynamic range was the same. When loaded into ProTools, the two sets of waveform graphs matched precisely, giving objective confirmation to what I heard.

I've since had the following Email exchange with Gunter Van Rompaey of Brilliant Classics:

*  *  *

James Meckley to Gunter Van Rompaey:

I have a question about the contents of your boxed set of Mahler symphonies (#99549), specifically about the recording of the third symphony, by Jascha Horenstein and the London Symphony. Is your release a direct copy of the original Unicorn CD, or did you remaster or re-equalize it in some way? In other words, should I expect your CD of this symphony to sound exactly like the original Unicorn CD, or might I expect it to sound different in some way?

Sincerely, etc., etc.

Gunter Van Rompaey to James Meckley:

Thanks for your inquiry. I can indeed confirm that the recording has not been remastered and is the same as the licensed one from Unicorn. I hope this information is useful to you.

Best regards,
Gunter Van Rompaey
Team Brilliant Classics

*  *  *

So Brilliant says they're the same and they sound exactly the same to me, yet others have heard significant, even dramatic, differences. I don't understand what's going on here.

James


P.S.
Of course, Tony Duggan is correct—there were two sets of microphones deployed during the original recording sessions, but that has no bearing on the issue at hand. One set was Bob Auger's, for Unicorn-Kanchana. The other set was Jerry Bruck's, for his own purposes.

Mr. Auger's tape has been used for the following:

1) The initial Unicorn LP release
2) The Nonesuch LP release
3) The Advent CrO₂ (chromium dioxide) Dolby B cassette release—remember those?
4) The Barclay-Crocker quarter-track open-reel tape release
5) The Unicorn CD release
6) The Brilliant Classics CD release

Mr. Bruck's tape has never seen any commercial release.

JM