still love my Zinman M6

[barry guerrero]

Yeah, OK. I still really like this Zinman Mahler 6. I listened through the whole thing again at work. Yes, the scherzo is slower than normal, and I do think that Zinman could have employed more tempo contrasts in the scherzo. But the deliberate sound effects are all really good, and Zinman makes a true climax near the end of the movement - not by making the tam-tam smash louder (Levine), but by slowing down before that spot: right where the woodwinds do their weird sounding unison trills. It's as though some weird clown is getting in your face.

The slow movement is fabulous; tons of cowbells. If you need it dragged out to 17, 18, or 19 minutes, you might not care for it. Terrific finale.

I think I really want to get that "Going Against Fate" dvd from Japan. Maybe they'll release it here (kind of doubt it).

Barry

[Leo K]

I agree, this is a really solid M6...with many details I like to hear again, including cowbells, tam tam, timpani, bassoons, trumpet and low brass...in other words, the sounds of the lower forces of the orchestra is represented quite well, not in your face (like the Sieghart) but in a natural sounding sound picture, very well produced because the details are easy to hear.  The darker tone doesn't sound like Brahms, as Abbado's BPO/DG M6 tends to veer towards in conception.  Here, there is the huge Mahler sound we all expect and desire...and recorded very well at that.

I like the slower Scherzo, even in second place (I've tried both placements), yet perhaps it does work better to have a slower scherzo placed after the andante...I can definitely agree the flow is more natural.

Cheers for this M6 all around, and one of the best in sound (sorry to keep beating that drum, but I can't resist).

--Todd

[john haueisen]

Todd,
On matters Mahlerian, "beating a drum" is always appropriate.

[merlin]

Just finished listening to this.  Whilst it certainly is an excellent performance -- brass and percussion especially -- and on SACD the SQ is superior, I still prefer Bernstein/VPO/DG.  I find that version, as with most of Lenny's Mahler recordings, to be more expansive, emotional, and edgy.

BTW, does anyone know if the DG discs have been issued separately on SHM-CD?

[John Kim]

...I am not so sure

It seems that in this symphony Zinman went back to the school of making music "lightweight and undercharacterized" which he did so effectively in the case of Mahler Second. But here everything sounds lightweight and undercharacterized without becoming particularly musical. The first movt. is a case in point. I don't hear much gravitas (which is not really a bad thing), but at the same time there doesn't seem much convincing musical argument being made by the conductor.  The Andante movt. is probably the best in this recording, but again the Scherzo is just numbing. It is also disappointing some details in the mid range and high end get swamped by the powerful, much more prominent low freq. spectrum.

Don't know, maybe it's just me. So, I will keep trying...until I get swayed by Barry's enthusiasm

John,

[john haueisen]

All the comments here have made me really want to hear the Zinman M6.
Where is a good place to buy this recording--I don't see it listed at Amazon.
--John H

[merlin]

 IIRC, Barry said it will not be available in the US until at least April.

But you can get it here:

http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2795254

[john haueisen]

Thanks for the help, Merlin.
I was hooked on this from the second I read Barry's comment, "tons of cowbells."
--John H

[Leo K]

I took out the Zinman M6 again the other night...it sounds even better the 3rd time...this has been my experience with Zinman's Mahler cycle, his readings reveal details and structure, or nuances over more listens.  Although not to everyone's taste, I like the production of this recording, since I prefer the higher strings not to be too close, as this can become uncomfortable when I turn the volume up (as I inevitably do as the performance escalates).

Yet, there is a quality I love about the performance I just can't find words for...this is probably a good sign!  (Here I try again) the performance is thoughtful, with much heft and movement...instrumental color not overly exaggerated but not lost in the total sound either.  It some ways, the recording reminds me of the Karajan/BPO/DG M6 sound...it shares a similar sound with this recording, only the actual execution of both are quite different.  Each rendition sounds larger than life, because of the concerthall viewpoint (or hearing point) of the distance of the orchestra to the mikes.  The sound reminds me of the Horenstein live M8 which was captured by one microphone dangling over the proceedings (if I remember correctly)...so on the Zinman or Karajan, the performance--sound appears to arise from one perspective, or one viewpoint in totality, and this particular sound is exciting for me, as it is like hearing an eruption of sound in the context of spontaniety itself.


I too an tempted to order the DVD.

--Todd

[John Kim]

Todd,

Despite all those merits you described I just can't get warm enough to this M6th. It just doesn't get my attention. That's one problem. You know, a good recording should grab my attention all the way through and so far it didn't. When I actually sat down to listen carefully I didn't hear much that distinguishes this version from all others. Actually, Zinman's sounds rather small-scaled compared to say, Bernstein's on DG. It sound as though undercharacterized, incomplete and immature.

Don't know, perhaps I will change my opinion in coming weeks 

John,

[barry guerrero]

I like Zinman's cycle, in general, just for the reasons that Todd mentions. Zinman treats Mahler as good music, and not as a constant hysteria festival. I still argue that there's a "classical" form & structure to this work; more of a overriding concept than than anything else, really. Of course, this is a very different Mahler 6 than the Bernstein on DG. As strong and powerful as Bernstein/VPO are, I just find that Bernstein allows the finale to sprawl too much: it's well over 33 minutes. I also find him a tad too fast and driven in the first movement. Yes, Zinman is more restrained in the first movement. But notice how he allows the "Alma" theme to move forward, and not become bogged-down by an over-romanticized touch. Also pay attention to the two, very brief passages that I've  mentioned previously: the very beginning of the development section (immediately after the second playing of the "Alma" theme), and the muted horns - which are quickly switched to open horns - just before the coda. These brief passages assure you that someone is clearly paying attention, and not just sleep-walking. If this performance doesn't grab someone, so be it. But it grabs me very much, and I've had a very long and personal association with this symphony - more than any other Mahler symphony, actually. That doesn't make me "right", but it does mean that I've considered these points very painstakingly.

By the way, John; as slow as Zinman's scherzo appears to be, both Haitink/CSO and Gielen are a full minute slower. Listen to how he makes a true, horror-show climax just before the tam-tam smash (and hence, the movement's subsequent melt-down).

Barry

[John Kim]

Barry,

I am working hard to get around the Zinman. I will try to examine your points when revisiting it next time 

Thanks for all the positive remarks about this recording.

John,

[klingsor]

After reading this thread I have heard the Zinman M6. I was very pleased with I & II, but was particularly struck by the Scherzo and the Finale. As other say, the Scherzo is on the slow side. I have probably not heard as many renditions of this work as other here have, but I have heard many recordings and at least 2 live performances, and this is the most interesting take on the Scherzo I have come across. I fully enjoyed the movement for the first time: Zinman seems concerned with bringing out dark and menacing detail and it really works for me (I also applaud Zinman's choice of movement order here). The Finale sounds more mysterious, frightening and beautiful than I usually hear it, among the best on record to my hearing. I would highly recommend hearing this one.

[sperlsco]

It's been a few weeks, but I previously listened to this performance twice through.  The first time I listened in my preferred S-A order, and then the A-S order in which it was performed.  This is the closest I've come to being convinced of the merits of A-S order, and I expect that Zinman's choice of tempo for each movement plays a significant roll.  I  am not a big fan of Adagio-speed Andantes, and it particularly sounds strange (perhaps over-syrupy) when following the ending of the first movement.   Zinman takes the opening of the scherzo slower than the opening of the first movement, which sounds less repetitive, and gives me the feeling of forward movement or progression through the symphony (i.e. not returning me to the beginning of the symphony).  Conversely, I still feel that the S-A version has perfect transitions from the end of the Scherzo to the beginning of the Andante, and again from the end of the Andante to the beginning of the Finale. 

On the whole, I really like Zinman's M6.  I had hoped to type some more detailed comments after I last listened to the piece, but could not find the time. 

[John Kim]

I agree with Scott that the S-A order makes the most sense musically and thematically. I just can't think of a better way of presenting the whole symphony.

But I must admit that Zinman's may be the best version that has the A-S order. Here is the secret of his success:

He conducts A as if it is S, and S as if it is A.

Thus, temposwise Zinman speeds up the Andante and slows down the Scherzo. And for once it works. But the downside is that having achieved the best way to present the A-S order, he has altered the overall flow of the symphony. This is the trouble I am trying to deal with when listening to Zinman's recording.

John,