anyone greater than Mahler?

[justininsf]

This is a resurrection of Barry's thread that got rather heated and then locked down, I just wanted to discuss it again because it is an interesting topic.

I find Bruckner and Mahler to be my end alls when it comes to music.  Sometimes I will defer to Bruckner when I am want a more detached (less human, more cosmic?) musical experience. 

But for me I think it is quite simple, both composers use brass to make bombastic sounds, it really is as simple as that.  My favorite moments are not the quiet ones, they are the ridiculous climaxes with trombones blaring that do it for me, and both composers are more effective at it than anyone else.  I'm curious if anyone shares these feelings or find them comical.

As we are trying to describe subjective and personal impressions here, words will only do so much, so take what I've written with a grain of salt.

[ChrisH]

As I've gotten older I've grown to really love Mahler's quieter moments. The central section of the 1st movement of the 7th, the little Schubertian lyricism in 3rd movement of the 1st. Moments like that get more these days. That's not to say I don't like the loud stuff, I do, I just appreciate the intimate moments that Mahler gives us.

Lately I've been listening to a bit of Sibelius, Gal, Casella, and some Gliere. Also, Salome, that's really got me going lately. 

[justininsf]

Actually I started this thread as a discussion of those two composers, but this is better, I never heard of Gal, thanks Vehemence!  I am checking out his music on youtube now, forget about 2015 being the golden age for Mahler, with the technology now it is just a golden age for music in general!

[barry guerrero]

"But for me I think it is quite simple, both composers use brass to make bombastic sounds, it really is as simple as that"

But it's actually more complicated than that when you're discussing Mahler, because he treats all four sections of the orchestra with equal weight: strings, woodwinds, brass and percussion. He was the first composer to orchestrate that way. Therefore, the huge climaxes that you speak of are reinforced in the most intelligent manner possible by the percussion. And yet, even with all that brass and percussion going off, you can often times hear what  the strings and woodwinds are doing underneath them quite clearly.

And to answer your question in the subject column, I have a two-letter answer than speaks only for myself: no!

[akiralx]

Sibelius perhaps I find more profound than Mahler, also Bruckner I like very much for the same reasons.  Though of course Mahler produced sublime music (not all of it) virtually on the same plane.  Mahler is perhaps the most spectacular of all composers.

Others I like for their spirituality and reflections on the human condition are Schubert and Vaughan Williams - the latter's symphonies 2-6 are magnificent compositions, full of beauty, spirituality, and drama - and all very different.

[justininsf]

"But for me I think it is quite simple, both composers use brass to make bombastic sounds, it really is as simple as that"

But it's actually more complicated than that when you're discussing Mahler, because he treats all four sections of the orchestra with equal weight: strings, woodwinds, brass and percussion. He was the first composer to orchestrate that way. Therefore, the huge climaxes that you speak of are reinforced in the most intelligent manner possible by the percussion. And yet, even with all that brass and percussion going off, you can often times hear what  the strings and woodwinds are doing underneath them quite clearly.

And to answer your question in the subject column, I have a two-letter answer than speaks only for myself: no!

You're completely right, nobody does climaxes like Mahler!

[barry guerrero]

No one. They're not just loud, they're intelligent and they musically just work.

[justininsf]

Now is it wholly inappropriate to make a joke about how his mastery of the almighty climax failed to keep Alma's interest?

[barry guerrero]

Not in the least. Mahler worried about that himself prior to their marriage - using some kind of 'spring' (her) and 'fall' (him) metaphors for their difference in age. He may have been a bit naive about relationships, marriage and all that, but he wasn't entirely stupid either.

[justininsf]

I love the adagio of the 4th Symphony, the buildup over the whole movement to that climax is amazing.

[barry guerrero]

.   .    .  then you would LOVE hearing that very spot on the dvd of symphonies 3&4 with Paavo Jarvi/Frankfurt R.S.O.  Because it was performed in a church with very resonant acoustics, the bass drum 'whack' (right after the cymbal crash) and the double sticking of the timpani notes, just sound incredible. And because there's a lot of resonance, Jarvi gets away with taking that climactic moment a tad slower than its usually done.

[justininsf]

Dang it Barry!  Well it's ordered and will arrive on Friday, thanks Amazon.

[barry guerrero]

While I don't like to build things up too much, I don't think you'll be disappointed. I'm greatly looking forward to M7/M8 from this cycle.

[justininsf]

I figured I wouldn't start a bruckner thread since this is the Mahler board....

I just saw Bruckner 8 in San Francisco with James Feddeck conducting, never heard of him he was assistant at Cleveland.  It was a phenomenal performance (but I am very biased towards this piece and would have loved it if conducted poorly) but I was amazed because 1) to me the SF brass was amazing, 2) Feddeck really did a good job by taking his time with phrasing, i feel many conductors don't use enough time ending phrases with Bruckner, maybe it's a fear of being too longwinded.  he paced it phenomenally.

Talk about climaxes, the entire piece is one huge buildup to the very last climax and resolution to the C-major tutti at the end.  Best climax in all of Western Music!!!

I enjoyed it so much that after the concert I went straight to the box office and bought a ticket for the last performance, Friday night 3/27.  Any Bay Area fans of Bruckner here, I urge you to drop what you're doing and attend.  Tickets are a plenty, Bruckner is not popular here and MTT doesnt even perform any Bruckner (to my knowledge).  I know nothing about Feddeck except that he paced it magnificently, the two local reviews were good but not glowing, I'm sure his lack of brand name contributed.

One tip - make sure to talk to your neighbors before the performance and warn them of potential boredom with Bruckner and to keep quiet, there were people around me who obviously had no idea who Bruckner was and were squeaky in their seats and coughing too much, one couple was even talking at certain points in each movement.

[James Meckley]

Glad to hear you had a good Bruckner 8 experience in SF. The climax of the Adagio and the cumulative power at the end of the Finale—when done right—are surely two of the greatest moments in all of music.  I'd love to hear the repeat concert, but this is kind of short notice for a Floridian.

My greatest live Bruckner 8 encounter was in Carnegie Hall in the spring of 2002, with Bernard Haitink and the Vienna Philharmonic: an experience I'll treasure for as long as I live. This was just a few months after the horrors of 9/11, and the day following the concert the orchestra reassembled in St. Patrick's Cathedral to give a free performance of the Adagio from Bruckner 7 as a tribute to those who had perished, making the experience all the more memorable.

James