Author Topic: M7 observations  (Read 9589 times)

Offline Roland Flessner

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M7 observations
« on: April 25, 2015, 03:39:27 AM »
I've been listening to M7 a lot lately, and heard Haitink's very strong performance with the CSO a couple weeks ago. The concert got off to a rocky start when the Tenorhorn player cracked some notes, including his first. And, in M7, many of the effects depend on subtle orchestral colors, some of which vanish in the fog and glare of Orchestra Hall. Despite that, I think Haitink did an excellent job, leading a performance that was vigorous and straighforward.

However, he has yet to come to terms with the second-last note in the brass (in the Finale), which starts loud and is supposed to fade to piano. In his 1969 RCO recording, Haitink makes a crescendo instead, and to my recollection, he did the same in his BPO recording, which I no longer own. At the concert, he held the loudness steady. It's a wonderful Mahlerian joke if played as written, hinting at the onset of yet another false ending or digression; why ruin it?

As I've listened to numerous recordings, here are some quick observations: I've decided that slow tempos in the Nachtmusik movements really don't work. Movement II is a march and doesn't take kindly to gratuitous ritards, which break the momentum. I think movement IV should sound lighthearted, but some of that character is lost when the tempo drags.

A few notable recordings: Haitink 1969 (except for that crescendo) and Kubelik (studio) are both superb. Inner voices register clearly, particularly so in Haitink, with the RCO in top form. Levine/CSO is a very strong performance in good sound, though his movement IV is a bit slow for my taste. (Barry, note the magnificently atmospheric tamtam in the soft strokes in movement II.) As both a music lover and a Chicagoan, I'm pleased to note more than a whiff of Fritz Reiner's CSO still remained then.

Kondrashin/Leningrad is a nicely characterized and unmannered performance, in sound that is a little dim but quite listenable.

In Inbal/Frankfurt, a fine performance hides beneath homogenized sound.

Stenz is a likable and effective performance, with some peculiarities. E.g., at cue 4 in the first movement, Mahler instructs "Von hier an (unmerklich) drängend" ("From here on (imperceptibly) accelerating"), yet Stenz abruptly shifts to a faster tempo.

Gielen, to my ears, does just about everything right, and has a fine orchestra captured in good sound. However, the interlude in the first movement is unusually slow, and I find that questionable. On the other hand, if you want to hear every note in the mandolin and guitar in IV, played with great character, this is your recording.

And the performance that impressed me the most: Jansons/BRSO. Everything comes together: Compelling conducting, first-class orchestral execution, and excellent sound with both detail and depth, a rarity in live recordings. An example: In the first movement, two bars after cue 64, the bass drum plays two 32nd notes followed by a quarter note; at the same time, the snare drum plays a triplet of 32nd notes followed by the quarter. That cross rhythm is clearly audible, nearly a miracle in any circumstances, amazing in a live recording. Jansons is reportedly working from a revised edition, and I'll note one oddity: In the Finale, at cue 254, the first two thuds on the bass drum are missing, yet are present when they recur two bars later. I don't know if the player was inattentive or if this is another of Mahler's jokes, reflected in the new edition. Regardless, this is a high water mark in M7s.

Finally, in a review of Haitink's CSO performance, John von Rhein of the Chicago Tribune mentions that Erich Leinsdorf wrote that while the first movement is "is at least bearable, one certainly cannot say the same about the finale." Yes, this movement is episodic, often manically so, but I wonder if it wasn't Mahler's way of suggesting that the Austrian symphonic tradition was cracking apart. I'm also tempted to suspect that the tempo indications in the Finale are a sort of joke independent of the music; they're fun to read on their own, and suggest the tantalizing prospect that he was poking fun at himself.

Online brunumb

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Re: M7 observations
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2015, 05:37:08 AM »
However, he has yet to come to terms with the second-last note in the brass (in the Finale), which starts loud and is supposed to fade to piano.

Hi rf318.
Can you point us to any recordings where the conductor has the brass do that?  Thanks.

Offline James Meckley

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Re: M7 observations
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2015, 06:47:09 AM »
However, he has yet to come to terms with the second-last note in the brass (in the Finale), which starts loud and is supposed to fade to piano. In his 1969 RCO recording, Haitink makes a crescendo instead, and to my recollection, he did the same in his BPO recording, which I no longer own. At the concert, he held the loudness steady. It's a wonderful Mahlerian joke if played as written, hinting at the onset of yet another false ending or digression; why ruin it?

Interesting. At his 1985 Kerstmatinees concert in Amsterdam, Haitink played that note exactly as written. Why he did it "right" then and not on other occasions is a mystery. BTW, the score I'm looking at is the Universal Edition printing of the 1960 Critical Edition, which shows the brass chord in question beginning ff with a diminuendo lasting the full length of the measure. Curiously though, the p indication, which is the target of the diminuendo, is in brackets—(p)—suggesting that while Mahler wanted a diminuendo there, the idea that it must go all the way down to piano was Erwin Ratz's, not Mahler's.

James
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
Henry Krehbiel, New York Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler

Offline James Meckley

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Re: M7 observations
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2015, 07:03:35 AM »
Can you point us to any recordings where the conductor has the brass do that?  Thanks.

I just spot-checked a few recordings and they all did a proper diminuendo at that point:

Abbado/Chicago
Dudamel/SBSO
Inbal/CzPO
Macal/CzPO
Ozawa/Boston
Zinman/TO

James
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
Henry Krehbiel, New York Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: M7 observations
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2015, 10:29:26 AM »
 "Yes, this movement (finale) is episodic, often manically so, but I wonder if it wasn't Mahler's way of suggesting that the Austrian symphonic tradition was cracking apart. I'm also tempted to suspect that the tempo indications in the Finale are a sort of joke independent of the music; they're fun to read on their own, and suggest the tantalizing prospect that he was poking fun at himself."

Many people just don't handle humor in classical music very well. The finale is episodic because it isn't a strict Rondo by any means. It begins as a classic Rondo, but then behaves much more like a 'theme and variation's as it goes along. The whole movement gains speed as it goes as well. On top of that, Mahler brings back the 'dark' minor-keyed theme from the first movement; thus suggesting a sort of sonata game-plan after all.  I think that Mahler was not only poking fun at himself, but the entire late romantic idiom. As they so often say in the sports world, it is what it is.

To me, the 7th is a 'transition' symphony that is also a Mahlerian travelogue. The first movement is a condensed and harmonically more modern redux of the entire 6th symphony. The finale, on the other hand, leaves us on the doorstep of "Veni, Creator Spiritus". The character and mood of the entire symphony shifts towards the end of the middle movement scherzo. In particular, it pivots at the spot where the low brass play a carnival like tune for about four measures. From that moment on, the entire mood of the symphony is changed.

While I agree that the two Nachtmusik movements shouldn't go too slowly - particularly the second one - I don't think the first one 'works' when it's taken too fast either. I think it loses its 'nocturnal' or atmospheric quality when taken too quickly. About 15 to 16 minutes works for me, but that's just one person's opinion.

Speaking of the brass chord before the final note, the weirdest one is Bernstein/NYPO/DG, where Bernstein does a diminuendo, followed by a sudden crescendo. Most strange.

For me, timings for the 7th work best in the neighborhood of:  I - 22:30 to 23:00; II - 15:00 to 16:00; III - about 10:00 (Mahler warns against taking the scherzo too quickly); IV - 12: to 13:00; V - 16:30 to 17:30 (no slower for me).

No matter how you slice it and dice it, it's still an incredible symphony - there's nothing else like it in all of music (to a far lesser degree, you could say Ives #2). Just make certain that there's plenty of tiefe glocken (deep bells) and herden glocken (cowbells) at the very end - both are marked fortissimo. How's that for poking fun at oneself?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 10:33:42 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline Roland Flessner

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Re: M7 observations
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2015, 01:53:43 PM »
James, our scores match for that second-last bar: a full-bar diminuendo, with the p in parentheses.

Barry, Bernstein did the same thing in his '65 NY studio recording, a diminuendo followed by a crescendo. I used to have the DG recording but as I recall it was live and some of the playing was very rough.

Moving right along, the Gielen recording includes interesting notes by DH. He mentions that the bizarre modulation that closes the intro to the finale is Mahler making fun of the major-minor modulation that serves as a motto in M6 and figures prominently earlier in M7. That hadn't occurred to me but it's an intriguing idea.

Other commentators have mentioned that M7 is the composer's most harmonically adventurous symphony. I've long thought that it looks forward to a new era, and lately I've noticed that it surely looks forward to M9. In the "Leidenschaftlich" passage in movement 1 (between cue 45 and 46, especially the last four bars), I hear harmonies similar to those in movement I of M9, dissonant yet gorgeous. Also, near the end of II, between 108 and 109, a sort of trio of flute, clarinet and horn, the flute and horn closely mirror a similar passage near the end of M9-I.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: M7 observations
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2015, 05:30:35 PM »
" near the end of II, between 108 and 109, a sort of trio of flute, clarinet and horn, the flute and horn closely mirror a similar passage near the end of M9-I."

hey, that's a really good observation. They are quite similar.

In the first Nachtmusik, the second subject can flow a bit quicker than the first subject (for me) - the first subject being the slow paced nocturnal procession. The second subject starts in the celli, with the horns playing after-beats. I don't remember what the meter marking is, but it has the feel of 3/8 or 12/8 time. That part can move along a bit. For me, the passage where the horns play distant signals to each other - accompanied by cowbells in the distance - is often played in too hasty of a fashion. I think that magical passage should linger a bit. It's a great movement when it's done well.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 05:43:15 PM by barry guerrero »

Offline AZContrabassoon

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Re: M7 observations
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2015, 05:40:02 PM »
Good to hear that Haitink can still conduct credible Mahler. Personally, I have always found his recordings too buttoned-up, chaste, and nice. I bought his Berlin remake of the 6th hoping (but not getting) a blood-and-guts reading that eluded him in Amsterdam. Then I picked up his CSO Resound from 2008. Great playing and recording. But 90 minutes for a symphony many get in at under 80? I was never that impressed with his Amsterdam 7th, although when it came out it was a contender. Maybe he makes a bigger impact live. I don't know.

The 7th is a troublesome work, especially for conductors who take it too seriously. That finale works if you play it to the hilt, and yes, ignore a lot of Mahler's tempo markings. Kondrashin with the Concertgebouw is so exciting and fun. Jarvi tries a similar tack but something is missing. Overall, my preferred recording is from Chicago - with Solti. I think it's great, even the finale. The only quibble is the opening where he decided to use a measured tremolo in the strings, which ex-Chicago director Barenboim repeated in his otherwise superb reading from Berlin.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: M7 observations
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2015, 06:32:41 PM »
I'm afraid I have a different take. To me, the Solti M7 is pretty good UNTIL the finale, which I find to be just a total train-wreck. The timpanist can't play his rolls in the opening flourish, and it just seems to go downhill from there. Tempo relationships from one passage to the next seem so arbitrary and helter-skelter like. To me, it's no wonder so many people in earlier times, thought so little of the finale. While it might be a little too controlled, I think the best CSO recording of M7 is the Abbado. I think the Levine is pretty good too, but I just get tired of his constant pounding of the timpani in Mahler. It comes from being an opera conductor, I think. I would like to have heard Kubelik or Martinon do M7 with the CSO. Reiner did do M7 in Cincinnati.

On the other hand, I do think that Haitink's first Concertgebouw M7 is pretty darn good. It was one of the first ones that caught my attention, along with Bernstein/Columbia. I have heard the Christmas matinee one, and that's pretty darn good too - probably even better. I saw Haitink and the Concertgebouw give a fantastic M7 in Davies Hall in the early '80s. But then Edo DeWaart turned around and gave an equally great one with the SF Symphony just months later. DeWaart's RCA recording of M7 is really very good.

Haitink has been real 'hit or miss' in recent times. I think his CSO M6 is one of the worst ones from a purely aesthetic standpoint. He doesn't seem to know what to make or do with M6 these days. On the other hand, I thought his CSO M2 was quite good (and better than the over-hyped CSO M3). But he recently made a very good recording of Bruckner 9 with the LSO, of all orchestras (not an orchestral sound I associate with Bruckner). Anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed his recent CSO M7. That's all that really matters.

Offline Roland Flessner

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Re: M7 observations
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2015, 11:07:22 PM »
I’m with Barry on the Solti M7. The wheels fall off the bus in the finale. It was recorded at the Krannert Center in Urbana and sounds better than most of the Medinah Temple recordings from up here in Chicago. That’s a great hall and I need to to find an excuse to go there again.

After the 1967 remodel, RCA almost never recorded in Orchestra Hall again. Some of the late Martinon recordings, and nearly all of Levine’s (at least with RCA), were done at Medinah, which is gone now. The late-’90s remodel, which added an acoustic reflector, is a double-edged sword for concerts: sound is clearer in the Upper Balcony, but the reflector acts like a huge microphone and even when the musicians are playing quietly, it never seems to be less than mezzo forte. The Gallery, former home of cheap seats that sounded OK, is uninhabitable now. None of the CSO Resound recordings I’ve heard sound good to me. It’s a sobering thought that the CSO might have made its last good recording, perhaps even decades ago, unless they find somewhere else to record.

I go because I have to, not because I want to. I am going once more this season, to hear Salonen conduct Messiaen’s Turangalila-Symphonie, a piece I love but have never heard live before.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: M7 observations
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2015, 05:15:29 AM »
It's still a very good orchestra in need of a new home with far better acoustics.

Offline AZContrabassoon

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Re: M7 observations
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2015, 06:23:30 PM »
DeWaart's RCA recording of M7 is really very good.

There we completely agree. I liked the whole set which never got much respect or attention. I don't know why. Maybe de Waart just isn't as popular or well known as other conductors who were turning out Mahler sets at that time. It's one of the great RCA sets that hopefully will reappear in one of those dirt-cheap boxes they are making so many of. RCA must have invested a fortune in Zinman's sacd set, and they're selling it cheap now, but those performances only rarely really caught fire. The sound was great, but de Waart is so much more exciting.

Offline akiralx

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Re: M7 observations
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2015, 02:30:55 AM »
Haitink has been real 'hit or miss' in recent times. I think his CSO M6 is one of the worst ones from a purely aesthetic standpoint. He doesn't seem to know what to make or do with M6 these days.

Yes, the Haitink CSO M6 is the cosiest M6 I've heard - they should almost file it under 'Easy Listening'.  But M6 is by far my least favourite purely orchestral Mahler symphony, but I can't quite work out why.  Perhaps it's because with the opening march and the scherzo it is too rhythmic with few sections of repose, and perhaps a lack of long-breathed melody.  It is too martial for me...

For M7 I like Sinopoli and Nott.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: M7 observations
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2015, 05:16:16 AM »
The Sinopoli is a strange but interesting M7. I just wish he had recorded more of his Mahler in Dresden.  The playing on his Dresden "DLvdE" is fabulous. I do like the Nott M7. For me, Stenz has the best finale of anyone.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: M7 observations
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2015, 06:34:39 PM »
The Barenboim/Berlin Staatskapelle M7 is surprisingly very good also. I haven't been thrilled with any other Mahler I've heard with him, but he does well with the 7th.

 

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