What is your single "must-have on a desert island" Mahler work?

[Jeff Wozniak]

I think the jury will be deadlocked on this one.

It is, and has been from the start. But the specs is really what I mean to speak of, not so much the subjective perception or preference. People seem to like that less accurate and less than neutral sound that their analog rigs deliver, even with all the cracks and pops and rumbling present. (And tape saturation in climaxes.) One point that I think is interesting is that for obvious evolutionary reasons we tend to listen more attentively (and thus hear better) in the presence of, say, low-level white noise or some other form of distortion (whether we "hear" it or not). But yes, the analog "softness" or "smoothness" AKA "warmth" is the usual desciption here. I myself much prefer the sharpest possible delineation, and anyway can't even subjectively compare (best would be to run some blind tests on this) as I no longer own a turntable. Then again I've never looked back, which I guess I leave as my bottom line.

Happy listening.

PT

I have to agree with sbugala on this one.  As someone who ditched vinyl in 1984 and came back to it about 5 years ago I can honestly say that good vinyl sounds much more realistic to me than a CD.  CDs often sound too clinical, which can be great for certain things.  Good vinyl makes you feel as if you are in the room with the orchestra or band (lots of jazz LPs here). 

A CD sometimes may sound more "exact", but does it sounds real? 

I guess it depends on what you are looking for.  I have amazed people with multi-channel SACD at my place.  I have made jaws drop this way.  However, I have had more of these same people shake their heads in disbelief after hearing Starker's classic recordings of Bach's cello suites on high-quality LP (I also play the SACD for them and all so far have said the LP box set from Speaker Corner is better. Both are excellent IMO.  When my son was 2 I would play the SACD for him and he would stop for a few seconds and listen, then go about his business playing. He loves this recording.  When I would put the LP of the same sessions on he would stand at rapt attention for minutes as if he was seeing God).  Led Zeppelin's 45 RPM of "Stairway to Heaven" does the same thing for EVERYBODY I have ever played it for, and I don't think there is a person 30 years old or older who hasn't heard the song enough times that they could probably figure out how to play it out guitar from just hearing the song so much over the years.  Bill Evans' "Waltz for Debby" and "Sunday at the Village Vanguard" also do the same for jazz fans.  I have never heard these sessions from 1961 not sound good in any format, but the LPs make you feel like you are sitting in the middle of the club (I also own the SACDs of the two Evans' classics, as well as the XRCDs and red book CDs, and, great as the SACDs are, the LPs are the ones that make your heart skip a beat).

Could it be that analog is more natural and "human" sounding, whereas digital is more alien?  I'm not very good at describing this, and maybe someone could help me out here, if they can see where I'm trying to go with this.


I'd love to have a listening party with my Mahler friends here and see what you think in person.  Maybe one day this could happen.

[barry guerrero]

For me, the ease and convenience of CD's far outweigh any supposed defects in sound. I also feel that many people who are playing back LPs at optimum conditions (excellent turntables & cartridges, vacuumed LP's, etc.), are not doing anywhere the same sort of stuff with their CD's. By aside for those subjective opinions, here's something interesting that I can contribute:

A good friend of mine was a friend of the original designer of Quad electrostatic speakers and amps, both of which he used exclusively. He had a super-dooper, heavy base turntable (I don't remember what), numerous expensive cartridges (he liked Grados), and a vacuum machine for his LPs. He also used CD players that could be described as high-end mass production models, or low-end audiophile ones (again, I don't remember what make). He would A/B demo. the exact same recordings on LP and CD for me. In nearly every case, the sound was nearly identical between the LP and CD. True story.

Barry

[sbugala]

Well, here's something that doesn't quite contribute to the whole LP vs. CD debate, but it does involve one of my near desert island recordings...

I received Bernstein's complete Columbia Mahler cycle on LP in the mail today. I purchased it on ebay. The black leather bound set usually sells for at least $40 on average. But I got mine for a mere $10, much to my shock. Perhaps it was because the auction ended at 4 or 5 in the morning, but no one else bid. 

I'm pleased at the beautiful program notes, and the cool bonus LP of musicians who played under Mahler giving their thoughts. (That's also included in the NY Phil Mahler set that I ended up selling.) 

But I have yet to play any of the music because of that cool interview disc.  Bernstein's Sony set is pretty nice on CD. I like the multiple tracks they've added to certain works. But I freaking hate the cheesy tie dye look to that box.  Does Sony swear to make ugly looking Bernstein releases? First there was the Royal Edition that has mediocre watercolors by Prince Charles.  (Could be worse, I guess. They could've been watercolors OF Prince Charles.)  Then, there was Bernstein Edition, with cool photos of Bernstein, made ugly by weird color filters.  Now the tye die.  Perhaps there will be an original Jacket collection someday. Oh well. 

You know, here's one musing from the OTHER side of the fence. One thing that's cool about CDs is the fact a Mahler cycle can fit in the palm of your hand. It's almost like you're carrying around a warhead...a superpowerful package loaded with stuff like the Resurrection Symphony or the Ninth.  A digital download just doesn't deliver that (rather subjective) feeling.

[barry guerrero]

How come you only have two stars    - you've been around for a long while. 

[sbugala]

Can I get cumulative stars from posts from other Mahler boards from yesteryear?

So, just to show my objectivity, as much as I love my Mehta M5 with LA on LP, can I equally state that Bernstein's Columbia cycle in the famous black leather case sounds worse than expected?   (Little soundstage, nasally winds, thin string tone.) Perhaps I can flip this on ebay and put it towards a Bernstein Mahler SACD that some have raved about recently?  Bernstein's M3 on an early pressing sounds better on vinyl than the Bernstein Century edition. But that's obviously not the case with the M7 and M9 that I've sampled tonight.

[Polarius T]

How come you only have two stars    - you've been around for a long while. 

sbugala,

Why not reply to this post so you'll get over the hump (100 posts) and earn your third star? It's irritating to see someone so close (you have 99 posts as we speak).

To make matters easier for you I'll put up a provocation: yes, those newly remastered Bernstein Sony issues on DSD/SACD sound much better than in any previous incarnation, yet they still won't even come close to anything recorded in the last 10 - 15 years or so using standard PCM technology (as in "CD digital"). And in any case, it seems it's basically all about the mastering process (how good the guy pulling the levers is), not about the medium as such (analog vs. PCM vs. DSD), if listening tests are to be trusted.

So, are we getting there or not! 

PT

[sbugala]

Ok, well, here we go for 100...

My luck will be that the nanosecond I finally get the Bernstein SACDs from Japan, they'll be released here domestically in a fine Original Jacket Collection. 

As an aside, are the program notes for the SACD's exclusively in Japanese?

[Polarius T]

As an aside, are the program notes for the SACD's exclusively in Japanese?

Congrats for the new star! and, judging from the titles I have, the Jpn SACDs reproduce the original album back cover in entirety, incl. notes, on the back of the CD booklet, but the font size is equally smaller, i.e., you may need a magnifying class. Any new notes would be in Japanese, it seems.

I think if we are to not just survive but thrive in this world we need to enroll language courses in Japanese AND Chinese. I already feel the handicap.

PT

[Polarius T]

Japanese and Chinese classes?  Oh no--I have enough trouble understanding a few lines of German here and there!  Thank heavens David Hurwitz's book on Mahler symphonies is in English.  With Dave's help, I may arrive at an understanding of M7 that will elevate it to "desert island must-have" consideration status.
--John H

No worries, we already have machine translation to help us along. The below is an English translation of the Japanese translation made of your post:

The Japanese and China class? Oh NO--I who have understood the small-numbered line of German here and there possess sufficient trouble! Heaven Deivuitsudo Hurwitz' appreciate; as for the book of s of the symphony of Mahler there is English. Dave using the help of s, as for me perhaps, it arrives with the understanding of M7 which increases that; as for the unmanned island have which becomes state of consideration.

PT

[Jot N. Tittle]

Machine not worry. 

     . & '

[alpsman]

I am a little late to this topic but I must say one-two things:

Polarius T,
 
I sign myself everything you said about vinyl and analog and cd and digital sound.
I was in this debate for long time and it costs me a lot, in time and money and mood for  listen to music.I have a lot of good vinyl's and a costy and  audiophile turntable system, but I listen to cd and sacd and dvd( which i believe has extremelly good sound. And this in my 45dollars,yes 45US dollars dvd player). In cd we have a lot new releases, great dynamic sound, very practical use etc.And best of all you can concetrate to music alone.The disc is the medium and not the utmost goal for a true musiclover.

As for desert island disc( Mahler or other), I hope not to be in such an island. If this going to happen I prefer something else, easily anybody can guess.
And I will be liberating from  all this thousands of discs that keep us  in chains. Of course i just kiding and exagerate, but there is some truth in this.

[alpsman]

It would help you pass the time, until you could escape from the deserted island situation.

Yes JH, in that certain situation I hope I will  be in some tropical beach, like these in the travel commercials.
So there i will not want to be in suicidal mood so no M9 or M6. But i can't be without the numerous nostalgic Adagios. So a combination of M2 movement ii, M3 finale, M4 mov.iii, M5 Adagietto, M6 Andante will be very pleased to me.Also, this way I could dream of Alpine highs and meadows, which will be so far away.
But for my  desert island in real life( i mean,my home), I will choose M9, Bernstein, Abbado or Giulini conducted. ( Haven't hear yet a lot of M9 a pocess. Among them Macal, Kobayashi, Rattle both,Barenboim, Sinopoli Dresden, a lot of live Haitink, Ozawa, Maazel etc. You see I want time to absorb any performance, and I don't listen too often the works I like a lot, so not to burn them out.)

[john haueisen]

I could certainly survive with alpsman's choices.  I'm especially glad he included the Andante moderato from M6.  I was listening to several versions of it just this afternoon, and I think the glorious last five minutes of the andante (yes, especially with audible cowbells!) makes for one of the "most magical moments" ever in music.
JH

[alpsman]

I'm especially glad he included the Andante moderato from M6

I can't decide betwen M6 Andante and M3 finale for my favorite slow movement. I exclude the M9 Adagio(iv), because this is such an outworldy music and in a higher point.25 years ago as a newbie to Mahler(as i am now in this forum), I was very fond for M4 adagio. But the two i said before are now my favorites.
M3 Adagio is somehow philosophical and M6 is more green, ecological and nostalgic.

[Psanquin]

What is your single "must-have on a desert island" Mahler work?:

Difficult question. I dare to name Sinopoli's Eighth and Bertini Ninth (Tokyo Metropolitan).