Author Topic: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017  (Read 50744 times)

Offline GL

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #90 on: June 26, 2017, 05:42:16 PM »
I knew that Minnesota & Vänskä recorded the Sixth last autumn and I read about the recording of the Second, so I was surprised to find out that the first Mahler release of Minnesota & Vänskä will be the Fifth!

https://smile.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-Minnesota-Orchestra/dp/B0711CKS48/ref=tmm_acd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1498125409&sr=1-3

http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Mahler-1860-1911_000000000019272/item_Symphony-No-5-Vanska-Minnesota-Orchestra-Hybrid_7982750

https://www.amazon.fr/Symphony-No-5-Sacd-G-Mahler/dp/B0711CKS48/ref=tmm_acd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1498125591&sr=1-10

It could be interesting for the orchestra and the sonics provided by BIS. As for Vänskä's contribution, I did not find his Fifth with Hong Kong very special:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_yxolaffpo

Bakc to the main topic: Mahler's Fifth with Minnesota & Vänskä

Sound Clips:

http://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/mahler-symphony-no-5-minnesota-orchestra-osmo-vanska/7318599922263#item

Recording Mahler's Fifth:

https://www.minnesotaorchestra.org/showcase/143-recording-mahler-5

The recording will be released in USA on 4 August, but it is just available at Orchestra Hall and through the Minnesota Orchestra’s website, as it has been announced here:

"Minneapolis Minnesota (June 6, 2017) — The Swedish label BIS Records is releasing its newest collaboration with Music Director Osmo Vänskä and the Minnesota Orchestra—a recording of Mahler’s Fifth Symphony. The album will receive its U.S. release on August 4, but will be available at Orchestra Hall and through the Minnesota Orchestra’s website, minnesotaorchestra.org, beginning June 12.

Vänskä and the Orchestra recorded Mahler’s Fifth Symphony at Minneapolis’ Orchestra Hall in a series of sessions in June 2016. They recorded Mahler’s Sixth Symphony last November, and to date, have made plans to record three additional symphonies: the Second during the current season and the First and Fourth during the 2017-18 season.

The BIS team, led by producer Robert Suff, recorded this album as a Super Audio CD (SACD), using surround sound recording technology to reproduce the sound of the concert hall as faithfully as possible. BIS Hybrid SACDs are playable on all standard CD players. Further information about the Minnesota Orchestra’s recordings on the BIS Records label can be found on the BIS website, www.bis.se."

(https://criticaclassica.wordpress.com/2017/06/06/bis-records-and-the-minnesota-orchestra-release-first-disc-in-mahler-recording-project/)

Offline barryguerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1359
Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #91 on: June 26, 2017, 11:00:47 PM »
You still can't hear the sound clips yet. There's a nice shot of Minnesota tuba player Steve Campbell, who has monstrous chops.

Offline GL

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #92 on: June 27, 2017, 09:35:07 AM »
You still can't hear the sound clips yet. There's a nice shot of Minnesota tuba player Steve Campbell, who has monstrous chops.

I tried them before posting the link and they worked. I am trying them now and they are still working.

Clips from amazon.co.jp work too:

https://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B072N97LKN/ref=dm_ws_sp_ps_dp

A brief clip from a live performance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V9uqw4pKWU

Vänskä's tempi according to hmv.co.jp:

I. 13:04/ II. 15:31/ III. 17:39/ IV. 12:36/ V. 15:27 = 75:30

For people interested in matters of tempi, Mahler's ones for his Fifth Symphony were:

Hamburg, 12 March 1905 (dress rehearsal): I. 12/ II. 15/ III. 17/ IV. 9/ V. 15 = 68 + (pauses) 2 + 3 + 3

Holland, 1906: I. 14/ II. 16/ III. 17/ IV. 9:30/ V. 14 (tempi annotated by Mengelberg; there were 8 performances of Mahler's Fifth in Holland in 1906; the first two were conducted by Mahler, the first in Antwerp and the second in Amsterdam, the others 6 were conducted by Mengelberg).

St Petersburg, 9 November 1907: I. + II. 27/ III. 17/ IV. 7/ V. NA (I think this is the performance attended by Stravinsky and Rimskij-Korsakov)

Bruno Walter's pocket score: I. 12/ II. 13:30-14/ III. 15-15:30/ IV. 7:30/ V. 14 = 63 + (pauses) 3 + 3
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 06:25:12 PM by GL »

Offline barryguerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1359
Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #93 on: June 28, 2017, 02:06:48 AM »
Yeah, I know what you're driving at. Vaenska's 12:30 for the Adagietto sounds extreme. I think 9 minutes is OK, but it sounds ridiculous at 7:30. Consider what Mahler himself wrote in the score.

At the very beginning (of the Adagietto) Mahler wrote several things in the span of just three measures: "sehr langsam" (very slow), "molto rit." (slow down lots) and "a tempo (molto Adagio)"   .    .     .    .  MOLTO ADAGIO!  Nowhere does Mahler mark anything faster than "fliessand" (flowing) and - at rehearsal figure 2 - "fliessender" (more flowingly, I think).

Mahler AGAIN writes "molto adagio" at the "Tempo I" located after figure 3, followed by "zogernd" (hessitantly) at figure 4, and "noch langsamer" (even slower) after that! Clearly the man did not want this movement to rush.

Am I suggesting that Mahler, Mengelberg and Walter were all out of their minds?    .    .    .   YES, I AM. The proof is in the pudding: the Adagietto sounds stupid when it's played for less than 8 minutes. Personally, I don't care if it was 'love letter' to Alma, or to Goebbels, or to anyone else. Musically, it sounds best in the 9 to 11 minute range. Granted 12:30 is at the other extreme. That said, however   .    .     .   

.   .    .  have you ever heard the Scherchen/Philadelphia Orchestra M5 from Tahra (which stayed in print for about 12 minutes)?   .    .    .   Scherchen does the Adagietto at 15:12 and it sounds fabulous! Of course, we're talkin' Philly here. Bruno Maderna - whom so many historical buffs hold up on such a high pedestal - did the Adagietto at 12:40. Bruno "freakin'" Maderna, folks.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 02:14:00 AM by barryguerrero »

Offline GL

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #94 on: June 28, 2017, 10:14:08 AM »
Yeah, I know what you're driving at. Vaenska's 12:30 for the Adagietto sounds extreme. I think 9 minutes is OK, but it sounds ridiculous at 7:30. Consider what Mahler himself wrote in the score.

At the very beginning (of the Adagietto) Mahler wrote several things in the span of just three measures: "sehr langsam" (very slow), "molto rit." (slow down lots) and "a tempo (molto Adagio)"   .    .     .    .  MOLTO ADAGIO!  Nowhere does Mahler mark anything faster than "fliessand" (flowing) and - at rehearsal figure 2 - "fliessender" (more flowingly, I think).

Mahler AGAIN writes "molto adagio" at the "Tempo I" located after figure 3, followed by "zogernd" (hessitantly) at figure 4, and "noch langsamer" (even slower) after that! Clearly the man did not want this movement to rush.

Am I suggesting that Mahler, Mengelberg and Walter were all out of their minds?    .    .    .   YES, I AM. The proof is in the pudding: the Adagietto sounds stupid when it's played for less than 8 minutes. Personally, I don't care if it was 'love letter' to Alma, or to Goebbels, or to anyone else. Musically, it sounds best in the 9 to 11 minute range. Granted 12:30 is at the other extreme. That said, however   .    .     .   

.   .    .  have you ever heard the Scherchen/Philadelphia Orchestra M5 from Tahra (which stayed in print for about 12 minutes)?   .    .    .   Scherchen does the Adagietto at 15:12 and it sounds fabulous! Of course, we're talkin' Philly here. Bruno Maderna - whom so many historical buffs hold up on such a high pedestal - did the Adagietto at 12:40. Bruno "freakin'" Maderna, folks.

No you don't. I'm driving at nothing.

Matters of tempo are relative, not absolute.

Modifications of speed as requested by Mahler are to be considered against the background of the basic tempo, which should be flowing. The programmatic issue concerning the love letters to Alma or Goebbles is not important, because it is something attached to the music ex post facto. What matters is what is immanent to music. The rules of the game we are invited to play while listening music are dictated by the genre and by what the composer actually writes. Adagietto is an Italian word and, being Italian, I can assure you that it means "little adagio"; if Mahler had wanted it to be played like a big adagio, he would have headed it "Adagione"! :-) As it always happens in Mahler, he added contradictory indications to prevent interpreters from exaggerations (in the case of Adagietto, to make them avoid rushing things). As for the question of genre, the ABA form's Adagietto is a song without words and, given the tristanesque central section, a song concerned with love--for whom (Alma? Goebbles?) or for what (solitude in Nature's realm?) frankly it does not matter. What matters is that a song needs to be played cantabile, what matters is that a love song is not a dirge/threnody.

And yet... as I wrote, matters of tempo are relative and an Adagietto sensitively shaped/phrased (usually stretching the central section) can be very nice even at the 11:34 of the Frankfurt/Inbal recording.

And yet... we do not have to forget that the Adagietto is part of a Symphony, it is its fourth movement, the first of the Symphony's third part. A sensitive conductor shapes it accordingly to his/her general vision of the entire Symphony. Considering it an introduction to the Rondo-Finale (Mahler wrote attacca at the end of the Adagietto, while he even took a pause between the first two movements), the brisker the Finale, the brisker the Adagietto. Unless a conductor wants to balance the weight & duration of the first part of the Symphony by adding weight & duration to the third part, usually through relaxing the Adagietto (while I think this is a mistake, because I believe the first and third part have to be and kept asymmetrical, if it is done well I am perfectly happy with that).

I own almost every recording of Mahler's Fifth, included (alas) the infamous Scherchen's live one taped in Philadelphia. Let's tell the whole story about Scherchen & the Fifth. He recorded it in 1952 with the Vienna State Opera Orchestra (Westminster) and his tempi are:

 I. 11:22/ II. 13:35/ III. 18:06/ IV. 9:15/ V. 15:19 = 67:39

On October 30, 1964 Scherchen conducted the Fifth with the Philadelphia Orchestra and his tempi were:

I. 13:03/ II. 13:46/ III. 5:42 (sic)/ IV. 15:12/ V. 10:29 = 58:14

He wrote to his daughter that he relaxed the Adagietto not to break the movement's world record for duration (which anyway, as far as I know, he still owns), but because the strings played wonderfully and could sustain the tempo he chose. But that tempo meant also that, in his perverse vision, with a Scherzo reduced to a bit less than 6 minutes and some cuts in the Finale too, the Adagietto needed to acquire weight and become the focal point of the third part to counterbalance the first part, which he executed without cuts (and very well, savagely enhancing the contrasts). With the pivotal Scherzo intact there would be no need to counterbalance anything, as his official, uncut recording of the Fifth clearly shows.

That said, Scherchen's disgraceful performance with the Philadelphia Orchestra is the musical equivalent of a rape. And I do not care if they played like gods and so on, because an inferior orchestra like the NHK Symphony of Tokio (http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Mahler-1860-1911_000000000019272/item_Symphonies-Nos-4-5-Blomstedt-NHK-Symphony-Orchestra-Akiko-Nakajima-2001-1985-Stereo-2CD_4241320) playing Mahler's Fifth is better than a great orchestra like the Philadelphia Orchestra playing Scherchen's Symphony concocted with chunks of Mahler's Fifth.

Finally, Mahler and Walter were not out of their minds. It is just that up to 1950s there was a tradition, stemming from the composer himself, to play the Adagietto flowingly and it was perceived right and liked that way. When Bernstein played it as a dirge first for Serge Koussevitzky and then for JF Kennedy and when Visconti exploited it for Morte a Venezia (Death in Venice), a new tradition began affirming itself; people who knew and experienced their Mahler in that new tradition, felt it right and liked it.

In the end I return to the beginning: I'm driving at nothing. I just enjoy great performances, even better if beautifully played, and where everything makes sense according to the conductor's vision. Tempi are relative to that vision. I like fresh, intriguing, thought provoking approaches, I care about tradition when it is something genuinely felt and expressed, I do not care about tradition when it is just Schlamperei.

Offline GL

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #95 on: June 28, 2017, 10:44:39 AM »
Back again to the main topic:

Mahler's Song Cycles with Alice Coote and the Netherlands Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Marc Albrecht:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Song-Cycles-Alice-Coote/dp/B072Q51CNC/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1498127840&sr=1-1&keywords=B072Q51CNC

http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Mahler-1860-1911_000000000019272/item_Kindertotenlieder-Lieder-Eines-Fahrenden-Gesellen-Ruckert-Lieder-Alice-Coote-S-Marc-Albrecht-Netherlands-Philharmonic-Hybrid_7897258

It could be a nice release: I was delighted by Mahler's Fourth conducted by Marc Albrecht with the Netherlands Philharmonic Orchestra and Elizabeth Watts (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Symphony-No-4-G/dp/B00TP96RAE/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1498646336&sr=1-1&keywords=B00TP96RAE).

Marc Albrecht knows his Mahler and Dutch friends around here should know that he will conduct the Tenth (Cooke's performing version) next September at the Concertgebouw (https://www.concertgebouw.nl/concerten/marc-albrecht-dirigeert-mahlers-tiende/15-09-2017/conductor=Marc+Albrecht/gezocht-op=marc+albrecht).
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 11:04:17 AM by GL »

Offline barryguerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1359
Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #96 on: June 28, 2017, 05:51:30 PM »
OK, fair enough. ALL of your points are well argued. And you're right, Scherchen lopped off an awful lot of the scherzo (personally, I like it - it was done that way to fit into a radio broadcast [or so I've been told]). But you have to admit that the playing of Philly is pretty incredible at the start of the second movement. I've never heard it executed that well at that tempo.

I jump on this topic for a very obvious and annoying reason. Everybody - and I'm not talking about you, GL - makes a big fuss about how the Adagietto shouldn't go slow (even though Mahler wrote what he wrote in the score), yet the very same people are perfectly are willing to ignore Mahler's "andante moderato" marking for the slow movement of M6. The word "langsam" isn't written ANYWHERE in that movement, yet people are happy to let that thing drag out to 17 or 18 minutes. So yes, this is a big pet peeve of mine.

In the spirit of what you've written, GL, I won't be scared off by Vaenska's 12:30 for the Adagietto.  I would prefer that it be closer to 11 minutes, but I'm quite curious to see how it all works.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 07:22:58 PM by barryguerrero »

Offline GL

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #97 on: June 28, 2017, 06:53:58 PM »
OK, fair enough. ALL of your points are well argued. And you're right, Scherchen lopped off an awful lot of the scherzo (personally, I like it - it was done that way to fit into a radio broadcast [or so I've been told]). But you have to admit that the playing of Philly is pretty incredible at the start of the second movement. I've never heard it executed that well at that tempo.

I jump on this topic for a very obvious and annoying reason. Everybody - and I'm not talking about you, GL - makes a big fuss about how the Adagietto shouldn't go slow (even though Mahler wrote what he wrote in the score), yet the very same people are perfectly willing to ignore Mahler's "andante moderato" marking for the slow movement of M6. The word "langsam" isn't written ANYWHERE in that movement, yet people are happy to let that thing drag out to 17 or 18 minutes. So yes, this is a big pet peeve of mine.

In the spirit of what you've written, GL, I won't be scared off by Vaenska's 12:30 for the Adagietto.  I would prefer that it be closer to 11 minutes, but I'm quite curious to see how it all works.

...and as a very last point I'd add that we should remember that Mahler was criticized for his fast tempi in big Adagios like the one of Beethoven's Ninth, and this means that it is very probable that what he meant for "slow" in his times was faster than what we mean for "slow" nowadays.

Anyway, I think that with rich and complex music, and I don't mean just Mahler's music, the more one tries to be open minded to different approaches and aware of all the layers of meanings attached to the music through generation after generation of listeners, the more one can enjoy his music and learn to be flexible and tolerant. Moreover, he/she will be able to judge the musicians for what they are doing, and not for doing/not doing what one has set up in his/her mind before arriving at the concert hall.

As for our good old Vänskä, I just hope he has not turned the whole Fifth Symphony into a pompous affair. In Germany it has become available today:

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/symphony-no-5-sacd/hnum/7120053

Offline GL

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #98 on: June 28, 2017, 06:55:04 PM »
New release: Mahler's Tenth and Strauss's Alpensinfonie with the European Union Youth Orchestra conducted by James Judd.

Interesting coupling: the First Movement of the Symphony that remained unfinished because of Mahler's death and the Symphony that, on the composer desk (in different versions) since 1899, received the decisive impulse for completion by the shocking news of Mahler's death.

https://www.amazon.com/Eine-Alpensinfonie-Adagio-Symphony-No/dp/B06XS1QHK2/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1498675746&sr=1-1&keywords=B06XS1QHK2

https://www.amazon.co.uk/R-Strauss-Alpensinfonie-Mahler-Symphony/dp/B06XS1QHK2/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1498675727&sr=1-1&keywords=B06XS1QHK2

Offline Prospero

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 184
Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #99 on: June 29, 2017, 12:00:27 AM »
What is one to make of de la Grange's documenting the Adagietto timings of Megelberg and Walter, who both worked intimately with Mahler? And reports of Mahler's timings. GM: Vienna, The Years of Challenge, p. 818.

Mengelberg, two recordings, 7 in 1926 and 8.20. Walter 7:58 in Vienna (1938) and in NY (1948) 7.38. Plus other early reported timings. Mengelberg reports Alma's memory that the movement is an orchestral song. Donald Mitchell concurs that the song form cannot be done or sustained as a song taken as slowly as many do.




Offline barryguerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1359
Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #100 on: June 29, 2017, 04:12:36 PM »
But then why the tempo markings? - much slower than those in the slow movement of the 6th, and just as slow as those for the slow movement of the 4th.

Look at the harp part. If it's taken quickly, the arpeggiated harp figures will begin to sound like mumbo-jumbo.

Offline AZContrabassoon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 172
Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #101 on: June 29, 2017, 08:07:00 PM »
Jumping into this Adagietto discussion late:

1. There is NO correct tempo for any piece of music. All that matters is how musical the chosen tempo is. There are many things to consider: quality of the performers, the relationship to tempos of surrounding movements, the acoustics in the hall, what time of day it is. Not a joke. Last year I was conducting four performances of the Nutcracker ballet. Several people, including a mad ballerina, mentioned that my Saturday matinee performance was noticeably quicker than the preceding Friday evening reading. Biorhythms and all that.

2. Regarding Walter's recording. Bear in mind that the old 78 rpm records could only hold 4.5 minutes per side and if he needed to get the Adagietto on two sides, quicker tempo it is. Historical recordings are always tricky in this way - the performers are slaves to the recording technology.

3. We know for a fact that performance timings have slowed down over the last 100 - 150 years. Erich Leinsdorf discussed it at length. So did Lorin Maazel - and he knew a few things about slow tempos!

4. As a rule, I like performances that move along...no draggy tempos for me. Hence, some of my favorite recordings come from conductors noted for picking things up: Paray. Monteux, Solti, Reiner, Markevitch, Jarvi. Too many conductors let tempos, and with it interest, flag. Maybe in a live performance a 15 minute Adagietto could be spellbinding - at  home it's simply boring.

Offline barryguerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1359
Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #102 on: June 30, 2017, 09:40:01 AM »
I agree with ALL of those points. Every one of them. But as I said before, I think the Adagietto works best somewhere between 9 and 11 minutes - which is only a difference of two minutes. Anything else is getting into an extreme, one way or the other. But I also feel that a 12.5 minute Adagietto makes more sense, musically speaking, than a 7.5 minute Adagietto. And I think that Mahler's own tempo markings in the score - as well as the reality of the harp part - back that thought up. That's my only point. No one has to agree with it. But it's not my fault that Mahler wrote "sehr langsam" and "molto adagio".
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 05:01:26 PM by barryguerrero »

Offline barryguerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1359
Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #103 on: June 30, 2017, 09:56:30 AM »
Jumping topics here, I feel that Alice Coote will be put to better use on the three shorter Mahler song cycles, than she was in "DLvdE". That's not a bad "das Lied", mind you, but neither is it terribly distinguished. Coote was definitely the best one of the three on it: contralto, tenor and conductor.

Offline Prospero

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 184
Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #104 on: June 30, 2017, 08:18:36 PM »
The points on 78 sides are reasonable. Although there are reports of timed performance not on record. de la Grange lists Hamburg (1905) at 9 and St. Petersburg (1907) at  7.

Mengelberg's performance score sets his version of a metronome pace that is certainly on the faster side:

http://www.omifacsimiles.com/brochures/mahler_ad.html

As an aside, Mahler's piano roll version of "Ging heut' Morgan" has a remarkably fast opening and then a significantly slower conclusion. Questions about technology and timing, but also some version of variety in Mahler's approach at that time and in that place and in those conditions. Still, it has Mahler setting a very fast clip for the opening.

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk