Are Mahlerites LOSERS??

[John Kim]

Speaking of personality vs. listening habit, I've seen classical music lovers with aggressive, nasty personalities whom on the surface it was pretty difficult to imagine as such. Even myself have often been criticized to be such .

So, I guess there might not be all that much linear correlation between the two in that sense.

John,

[wagnerlover]

I guess I'm lucky.  I have several friends with whom I can talk classical music in general and Mahler in specific.  And though none of them (us) is rich or famous, I wouldn't call us losers or even nerds (perhaps my accordion collection puts the lie to that).

A few weeks ago in the balcony of Carnegie Hall for Mahler 1 (Pittsburgh), the audience seemed to be filled with real enthusiasts who really "got" it.

db

[John Kim]

In mathematical terms, if I define,

A: knowing classical music

B: being a nice person

then A is NEITHER a sufficient NOR a necessary condition for B.

I have just proved it could never be the sufficient condition by my own experience.

The reverse - the necessary cond. - is not true either in general. BUT IT WOULD BE nice if it were. That is, how nice it would be if a nice person always knows classical music!

John,

[barry guerrero]

I think I'm a loser, to some extent, but I don't think that Mahler has anything to do with it. I've been "downsized", and have had my fair share of health problems. But on the plus side of the ledger, I've had a number of incredible experiences that were directly linked to Gustav Mahler - having to do with encounters that were pure coincidence, as well as some of the incredible "live performance" situations I've been involved in. Whatever faults and flaws I may possess, I can't blame them on Mahler.

San Francisco has become a big Mahler town - too much so, in some respects - and so it goes that a number of powerful and influential people very much like Mahler in this city. I find that to be a bit less true down the peninsula, as people's tastes are a bit more conservative around Palo Alto and San Jose. The "east bay" - forget it!

There's something wrong with the water from East Bay M.U.D., as I find that east bay people (Oakland, Berkeley, Richmond, San Leandro, etc.) often times have emotional problems, and think nothing of acting their problems out on the streets, or in shops. There's a lot of bad, public theater. I think Mahler could actually help them, if they would just give it a chance. S.F. is a tougher city but in a different way, so there's just less time, room, and tolerance for such behavior. It's more like N.Y. in that sense.

Marin county (north of the G.G. Bridge)   .     .     .   forget it! Nice people, but they're still into New Age. Actually, jazz is fairly strong in Marin AND the east bay. I've got to applaud them for that. 

[Zoltan]

Now, before this topic goes to even more self-deluding posts of what great bunch of people Mahler-listeners are, or some more unfounded elitism in the wrong sense, perhaps it's time to remember that someone's music listening habit doesn't say anything about its qualities as a person.

I guess it depends on how you define "the qualities as a person".

Personality? Ability to succeed? His position in the society? How nice he is as a human being? etc.

John,

Indeed, I wasn't clear enough! I was thinking of the latter; the way you wrote in a subsequent post.

[john haueisen]

Excellent comments by all posters!
If I can be permitted to be a real nerd, I would add that my relationship to Mahler's music is almost religious or at least mystical or spiritual, in that I thank God for the grace to allow me (and many of the folks here at the Board!) to appreciate Mahler's music as even more than music.  For me, it is nearly a connection to God, however we may define him.

If this makes some of us appear as nerds or losers, it is only because we do not obsess over the values so important to many in our materialistic world.

OK.  I realize that many are put off by any kind of mention of religion or a belief in a Higher Intelligence, but won't most of you at least agree that Mahler's music is unique especially in its capacity to mean more to some individuals than mere entertainment?
--John Haueisen 

[Zoltan]

OK.  I realize that many are put off by any kind of mention of religion or a belief in a Higher Intelligence, but won't most of you at least agree that Mahler's music is unique especially in its capacity to mean more to some individuals than mere entertainment?
--John Haueisen 

Yes, indeed, even as an atheist there is something more in the sound world of Mahler that puts it above "mere entertainment" for me as well, but not exclusively so. There are quite a few composers and pieces of music that have the same effect on me in from a variety of time and style.

[john haueisen]

Yes indeed, Zoltan!
Continuing the religious metaphor, perhaps that it why there are so many religions--different voices to address similar concepts.

[John Kim]

We are all losers one way or another. We never win. We always lose. Only the greedy corporations, murky conspirators, corrupt politicians, sly opportunists win in this world which has turned its back on people like us long time ago. 

Mahler would be a very unhappy man were he alive today. He would compose a symphony with double the length of the Third, double the agony and sadness of the Sixth and Ninth, with a note on its final page, "Oh, Shit!"

John,

[barry guerrero]

yes, but auf Deutsch, that would be "ach, scheisse!"  

John, lighten up. Three years after Mahler's death was the beginning of WWI. That wasn't exactly a jolly good time for everybody either. And don't forget the Spanish influenza of 1918.

[Michael]

I've been waiting to reply to this one until I had time to read all of the responses, just so I wouldn't miss anything.  So, here goes.

As far as Mahlerites being "losers" I would passionately disagree.  I would not mind the classification as a "nerd," but Loser...no...because there are all kinds of people who are passionate about one thing or another.  Oh, and by the way, I'm glad I am not the only person who loves trains!  ;-)
I have been put down in school for liking classical music, obviously in classes other than orchestra.  (For those of you who didn't know already, I am a junior in high school.)
Classical music is one of those things that is not a part of the mainstream world; it requires explination, never more so than in the case of Mahler.  One must have experience with the harder aspects of life to fully appreciate Mahler's music, especially the Sixth and the Ninth.  As for me, I discovered Mahler at a turning point in my life, so...yeah...LOL

[John Kim]

Classical music is one of those things that is not a part of the mainstream world; it requires explination, never more so than in the case of Mahler.  One must have experience with the harder aspects of life to fully appreciate Mahler's music, especially the Sixth and the Ninth.  

Precisely!

"The harder aspects of life"

Those who are so happy and successful in their lives simply won't need to listen to Mahler.

I know of no 'big figure' in my professional field who knows and listens to Mahler's music. It simply doesn't reach their minds. Doesn't need to.

John,

[Michael]

Classical music is one of those things that is not a part of the mainstream world; it requires explination, never more so than in the case of Mahler.  One must have experience with the harder aspects of life to fully appreciate Mahler's music, especially the Sixth and the Ninth.  

Precisely!

"The harder aspects of life"

Those who are so happy and successful in their lives simply won't need to listen to Mahler.

I know of no 'big figure' in my professional field who knows and listens to Mahler's music. It simply doesn't reach their minds. Doesn't need to.

John,

Listening to Mahler does not mean that you are a loser, or unsuccessful, or anything else negative.  It means, most likely, that you are a sensative person who has had experience with hardships in life somewhere along the way.  It *does not* mean that you are unsuccessful in a particular area of life or in life as a whole--please, trust me on that.  Success is not always easy.  In fact, in a lot of instances, it is downright difficult and seems impossible.
For some, true success is easy; for others, it is just the opposite.  Please trust me on this, too--I can speak from experience.  But it is attainable, of that I am sure.  At the end of the day, success is success and ultimately it is in the eye of the beholder.  Do you try to do the best you can?  Do you try to achieve your goals?  Are you happy with your life in general?
I would look to your answers to those questions to determine if you are a "loser" or not before I would look at whether you do or do not listen to Mahler.  And, quite honestly, I would reserve the term "loser" for a criminal who has murdered people or something similar.

I hope this post isn't as disjointed as I feel it is.  What I am trying to get across here John is that listening to Mahler's music does not make you a loser.  You just have different priorities from those you know who do not listen to the stuff.  That's all.

[James Meckley]

Michael,

I've been working this evening to come up with a response to this thread, the original premise of which I reject utterly, and while I've been struggling with words, you've just said everything that needs to be said. My hat is off to you and your remarkable maturity and insight.

James

[John Kim]

Alright, alright, I was just whining .

It's time for Mahlerites to be happy and successful!!!

John,